:: Re: [DNG] What is an init system?
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Author: William Peckham
Date:  
To: dng
New-Topics: [DNG] Cross distro collaboration (was: Re: What is an init system?)
Subject: Re: [DNG] What is an init system?
Keep in mind that Debian is not Linux. It is a single distribution that
has a long history of proper community support and support for the
community (although it has always had a political element internally) it
was longer lasting and arguably better than most of the others. Certainly
it adhered more closely to the FOSS and Unix philosophies than most. That
Debian has died. Counting on it is probably counterproductive, but
ignoring it maybe just as bad. We are not the only ones using or
maintaining Linux distributions that are free from SystemD. There are
other distributions that have no parent back end (Hola Void and Slackware
friends!), or that have a back end in the Red Hat family, or in Arch. We
might consider those our nearest neighbors in the community.

On Thu, May 16, 2024, 07:35 <dng-request@???> wrote:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Re: What is an init system? (Steve Litt)
>    2. Re: What is an init system? (Hector Gonzalez Jaime)
>    3. Re: What is an init system? (Didier Kryn)
>    4. Re: What is an init system? (Ralph Ronnquist)
>    5. Re: What is an init system? (sawbona@???)

>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Steve Litt <slitt@???>
> To: dng@???
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 21:39:35 -0400
> Subject: Re: [DNG] What is an init system?
> al3xu5 via Dng said on Wed, 15 May 2024 08:59:49 +0200
>
> >Wed, 15 May 2024 02:10:14 -0400 - Steve Litt
> ><slitt@???>:
>
> >> I didn't know about startpar. Thanks for the info. If startpar
> >> existed and worked in January 2014, it eliminated any excuse the
> >> "dd's" had for switching to systemd.
> >
> >It has been separated from sysvinit-tools at Wed, 19 Feb 2014 22:15:02
> >+0100, which means it already existed before...
> >
> https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/s/startpar/startpar_0.65-1_changelog
>
> In other words, poettering and the dds KNEW you could do (feature name
> parallel-instantiation) with sysvinit, but withheld this info from the
> general public and in fact lied ("you need systemd to do
> parallel-instantiation"). When Don Armstrong cast his bragged about
> tie-breaking vote for systemd, and before he removed posting rights
> from me and many others, he knew this was a lie. Now I'm really pissed.
>
> This puts sysvinit in a better light. Combine this with the short init
> script Martin showed us, and my only remaining objection to sysvinit is
> that the daemons need to background themselves.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
>
> Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Hector Gonzalez Jaime <cacho@???>
> To: dng@???
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 15 May 2024 20:35:49 -0600
> Subject: Re: [DNG] What is an init system?
>
> On 5/15/24 19:39, Steve Litt wrote:
> > al3xu5 via Dng said on Wed, 15 May 2024 08:59:49 +0200
> >
> >> Wed, 15 May 2024 02:10:14 -0400 - Steve Litt
> >> <slitt@???>:
> >>> I didn't know about startpar. Thanks for the info. If startpar
> >>> existed and worked in January 2014, it eliminated any excuse the
> >>> "dd's" had for switching to systemd.
> >> It has been separated from sysvinit-tools at Wed, 19 Feb 2014 22:15:02
> >> +0100, which means it already existed before...
> >>
> https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/s/startpar/startpar_0.65-1_changelog
> > In other words, poettering and the dds KNEW you could do (feature name
> > parallel-instantiation) with sysvinit, but withheld this info from the
> > general public and in fact lied ("you need systemd to do
> > parallel-instantiation"). When Don Armstrong cast his bragged about
> > tie-breaking vote for systemd, and before he removed posting rights
> > from me and many others, he knew this was a lie. Now I'm really pissed.
> >
> > This puts sysvinit in a better light. Combine this with the short init
> > script Martin showed us, and my only remaining objection to sysvinit is
> > that the daemons need to background themselves.
> >
> You can background those with a kludge like this:
>
> #! /bin/sh
> # kFreeBSD do not accept scripts as interpreters, using #!/bin/sh and
> sourcing.
> if [ true != "$INIT_D_SCRIPT_SOURCED" ] ; then
>      set "$0" "$@"; INIT_D_SCRIPT_SOURCED=true . /lib/init/init-d-script
> fi
> ### BEGIN INIT INFO
> # Provides:          someprogram
> # Required-Start:    $network
> # Required-Stop:     $network
> # Should-Start:
> # X-Start-Before:
> # Default-Start:     S
> # Default-Stop:
> # Short-Description: Start someprogram
> # Description:  Start someprogram as a service
> ### END INIT INFO
> #

>
> DAEMON="someprogram"
> USER="someuser"
> DESC="Some program that needs to run as some user and does not become a
> daemon"
> PIDFILE=none
>
> do_start_cmd() {
>          STATUS=0
>          /bin/su $USER -c "nohup $DAEMON &" || STATUS=$?
>          return $STATUS
> }

>
> do_reload() { call do_start_cmd; }
> do_stop() { killall $DAEMON; }
> do_status() { return 0; }
>
> > SteveT
> >
> > Steve Litt
> >
> > Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
> > http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dng mailing list
> > Dng@???
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>
> --
> Hector Gonzalez
> cacho@???
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Didier Kryn <kryn@???>
> To: dng@???
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 11:24:23 +0200
> Subject: Re: [DNG] What is an init system?
> Le 16/05/2024 à 04:35, Hector Gonzalez Jaime via Dng a écrit :
> >
> > On 5/15/24 19:39, Steve Litt wrote:
> >> al3xu5 via Dng said on Wed, 15 May 2024 08:59:49 +0200
> >>
> >>> Wed, 15 May 2024 02:10:14 -0400 - Steve Litt
> >>> <slitt@???>:
> >>>> I didn't know about startpar. Thanks for the info. If startpar
> >>>> existed and worked in January 2014, it eliminated any excuse the
> >>>> "dd's" had for switching to systemd.
> >>> It has been separated from sysvinit-tools at Wed, 19 Feb 2014 22:15:02
> >>> +0100, which means it already existed before...
> >>>
> https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/s/startpar/startpar_0.65-1_changelog
> >>>
> >> In other words, poettering and the dds KNEW you could do (feature name
> >> parallel-instantiation) with sysvinit, but withheld this info from the
> >> general public and in fact lied ("you need systemd to do
> >> parallel-instantiation"). When Don Armstrong cast his bragged about
> >> tie-breaking vote for systemd, and before he removed posting rights
> >> from me and many others, he knew this was a lie. Now I'm really pissed.
> >>
> >> This puts sysvinit in a better light. Combine this with the short init
> >> script Martin showed us, and my only remaining objection to sysvinit is
> >> that the daemons need to background themselves.
> >>
> > You can background those with a kludge like this:
> >
> > #! /bin/sh
> > # kFreeBSD do not accept scripts as interpreters, using #!/bin/sh and
> > sourcing.
> > if [ true != "$INIT_D_SCRIPT_SOURCED" ] ; then
> >     set "$0" "$@"; INIT_D_SCRIPT_SOURCED=true . /lib/init/init-d-script
> > fi
> > ### BEGIN INIT INFO
> > # Provides:          someprogram
> > # Required-Start:    $network
> > # Required-Stop:     $network
> > # Should-Start:
> > # X-Start-Before:
> > # Default-Start:     S
> > # Default-Stop:
> > # Short-Description: Start someprogram
> > # Description:  Start someprogram as a service
> > ### END INIT INFO
> > #

> >
> > DAEMON="someprogram"
> > USER="someuser"
> > DESC="Some program that needs to run as some user and does not become
> > a daemon"
> > PIDFILE=none
> >
> > do_start_cmd() {
> >         STATUS=0
> >         /bin/su $USER -c "nohup $DAEMON &" || STATUS=$?
> >         return $STATUS
> > }

> >
> > do_reload() { call do_start_cmd; }
> > do_stop() { killall $DAEMON; }
> > do_status() { return 0; }
> >
> >> SteveT
> >>
> >> Steve Litt
> >>
> >> Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
> >> http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
>
>
>      Well, all this seems to defeat the concept of dependency of servers
> wrt each other. It just start everything in parallel.

>
>      But actually it just should be all like this. Servers should be
> smart enough to detect if their running conditions are fulfilled and
> wait until they are. And report a reason when they're not ready.

>
>      Conditions may change, like the network is temporarily broken, but
> , in the current model, the OS assumes ssh is still ready, while it is
> not. Or what does it mean?

>
> --     Didier

>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Ralph Ronnquist <rrq@???>
> To: dng@???
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 20:12:42 +1000
> Subject: Re: [DNG] What is an init system?
> On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 11:24:23AM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote:
> > Le 16/05/2024 à 04:35, Hector Gonzalez Jaime via Dng a écrit :
> > >
> > > On 5/15/24 19:39, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > > al3xu5 via Dng said on Wed, 15 May 2024 08:59:49 +0200
> > > >
> > > > > Wed, 15 May 2024 02:10:14 -0400 - Steve Litt
> > > > > <slitt@???>:
> > > > > > I didn't know about startpar. Thanks for the info. If startpar
> > > > > > existed and worked in January 2014, it eliminated any excuse the
> > > > > > "dd's" had for switching to systemd.
> > > > > It has been separated from sysvinit-tools at Wed, 19 Feb 2014
> 22:15:02
> > > > > +0100, which means it already existed before...
> > > > >
> https://metadata.ftp-master.debian.org/changelogs//main/s/startpar/startpar_0.65-1_changelog
> > > > >
> > > > In other words, poettering and the dds KNEW you could do (feature
> name
> > > > parallel-instantiation) with sysvinit, but withheld this info from
> the
> > > > general public and in fact lied ("you need systemd to do
> > > > parallel-instantiation"). When Don Armstrong cast his bragged about
> > > > tie-breaking vote for systemd, and before he removed posting rights
> > > > from me and many others, he knew this was a lie. Now I'm really
> pissed.
> > > >
> > > > This puts sysvinit in a better light. Combine this with the short
> init
> > > > script Martin showed us, and my only remaining objection to sysvinit
> is
> > > > that the daemons need to background themselves.
> > > >
> > > You can background those with a kludge like this:
> > >
> > > #! /bin/sh
> > > # kFreeBSD do not accept scripts as interpreters, using #!/bin/sh and
> > > sourcing.
> > > if [ true != "$INIT_D_SCRIPT_SOURCED" ] ; then
> > >     set "$0" "$@"; INIT_D_SCRIPT_SOURCED=true . /lib/init/init-d-script
> > > fi
> > > ### BEGIN INIT INFO
> > > # Provides:          someprogram
> > > # Required-Start:    $network
> > > # Required-Stop:     $network
> > > # Should-Start:
> > > # X-Start-Before:
> > > # Default-Start:     S
> > > # Default-Stop:
> > > # Short-Description: Start someprogram
> > > # Description:  Start someprogram as a service
> > > ### END INIT INFO
> > > #

> > >
> > > DAEMON="someprogram"
> > > USER="someuser"
> > > DESC="Some program that needs to run as some user and does not become a
> > > daemon"
> > > PIDFILE=none
> > >
> > > do_start_cmd() {
> > >         STATUS=0
> > >         /bin/su $USER -c "nohup $DAEMON &" || STATUS=$?
> > >         return $STATUS
> > > }

> > >
> > > do_reload() { call do_start_cmd; }
> > > do_stop() { killall $DAEMON; }
> > > do_status() { return 0; }
> > >
> > > > SteveT
> > > >
> > > > Steve Litt
> > > >
> > > > Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
> > > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21
> >
> >
> >     Well, all this seems to defeat the concept of dependency of servers
> wrt
> > each other. It just start everything in parallel.

> >
> >     But actually it just should be all like this. Servers should be smart
> > enough to detect if their running conditions are fulfilled and wait until
> > they are. And report a reason when they're not ready.

> >
> >     Conditions may change, like the network is temporarily broken, but ,
> in
> > the current model, the OS assumes ssh is still ready, while it is not. Or
> > what does it mean?

>
> I think it is that the parallel start applies to links of the same
> number; i.e. all S01* links start in parallel, then when they are
> ready the S02* links start in parallel and so forth. That numbering is
> derived from the dependency declarations in the LSB headers so that
> when A depends on B the the link number for A is greater than the link
> number for B.
>
> Ralph.
>
> >
> > --     Didier

> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dng mailing list
> > Dng@???
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>
>
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: sawbona@???
> To: Steve Litt <dng@???>
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Thu, 16 May 2024 08:35:07 -0300
> Subject: Re: [DNG] What is an init system?
> On 15 May 2024 at 21:39, Steve Litt wrote:
>
> > ... poettering ... ... withheld this info ... ... and
> > in fact lied ...
>
> > Don Armstrong ... ... knew this was a lie.
>
> Surprise !!!!
>
> Not. 8^/
>
> Like I have said before with respect to systemd:
>
> ---
>
> We must not lose sight of the fact that this is *not* happening
> (primarily) to rid the Linux ecosystem of Devuan per se.
>
> ie: it isn't about Debian wanting to kill Devuan, it is about Debian
> being infiltrated and taken over by MS/IBM/RH.
>
> Devuan (and derivatives) demise is just collateral damage.
>
> Once Debian is infiltrated/absorbed by MS, the whole Linux ecosystem
> will be doomed and MS will have achieved its goal.
>
> ---
>
> If everyone involved gets these facts into their collective heads and
> properly processes them, there will be no more surprises.
>
> Best,
>
> A.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@???
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>