And Illegal in the way that Mr. X do not consent A to send the latest
hollywood movie to B over the channel, so I guess Mr. X, who has a lot of
money to spend on lawyers and politicians, will win the battle anyway.

2015-09-08 14:56 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:

>
> Illegal in the way that A and/or B do not consent that a Mr. X is
> listening when A has a chat with B and use the obtained information to
> create a claim.
>
>
> On 08.09.2015, at 14:15, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>
> Exactly, you cannot be sure, and given how easy it is to share bits you'll
> have to assume that likely there is some sharing going on. Not sure what do
> mean with "illegal way", content providers and ISPs have been teaming up to
> inspect internet packets since the technology is available in most
> developed countries. Obviously not everybody can in practice do it, it
> takes infrastructure and the right amount of money in the pockets of
> politicians.
>
> 2015-09-08 8:30 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>
>>
>> One can not be sure (nobody shares) but within a contract you could
>> define a remedy for the harm that is done to you by not fulfilling the
>> contract.
>>
>> You mean obtaining in an illegal way (without consent) Information (in
>> some jurisdictions) should be accepted as a proper proof?! Ok, then I go to
>> court and claim $ 1 Mio. damage from A because B told C that A stole it.
>> What will a judge say/decide?
>>
>>
>>
>> On 07.09.2015, at 22:56, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>>
>> Unfortunately eavesdropping is the only way to enforce intellectual
>> property rights, how else will you protect your property from being shared
>> without your consent? And I mean in practice, because what will you do in a
>> court if you have no proof that your property was shared?
>>
>> 2015-09-07 20:14 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>>
>>>
>>> Mr. X listening to a private communication in which intellectual
>>> property (“Happy B’day”) is exchanged is not enforcing intellectual
>>> property rights, that’s eavesdropping (secretly listen to a
>>> conversation), a violation of my privacy, depending on where you live.
>>> Going to court is (peacefully) enforcing your rights e.g. on intellectual
>>> property with all its difficulties.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 07.09.2015, at 18:38, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>>>
>>> Call it whatever you are more confortable with, but if you cannot
>>> deprive anybody from it, is not your private property. It may be your
>>> shared property with the receiver, until the receiver shares it with
>>> somebody else. Mr X listening to communications is something I would expect
>>> in a state where intellectual property rights exist, you know, contractual
>>> obligations have to be enforced.
>>>
>>> 2015-09-07 16:27 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>>>
>>>> Beg to differ.
>>>>
>>>> If A says to B “Happy Birthday”. What B does with it later on, e.g.
>>>> telling C, hey A called and said “H.. …” is his thing. Mr. X listening,
>>>> before B talks, doesn’t deserve respect.
>>>>
>>>> What happens if A says to B “Happy Birthday but don’t tell anyone”? B
>>>> might or not talk. Mr. X listening, before B talks, doesn’t deserve respect.
>>>>
>>>> Or, if A contacts B and asks “I would like to share some Info with you
>>>> but only when you do not share it with anyone else, do you agree?”. B
>>>> agrees. Mr. X listening all the way doesn’t deserve respect.
>>>>
>>>> If one puts communication/information in a contractual context
>>>> information stays private property without massive surveillance systems,
>>>> its a kind of non disclosure agreement. Of course if you don’t trust B
>>>> serving the contract you get paranoid and become Mr. X listening to all and
>>>> everything.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The very definition of communication goes against the concept of
>>>> private property, once you share the information you lost the capacity of
>>>> depriving the rest of the world of it. What strong encryption provides is
>>>> just secured communication channels and that's about it. I find people who
>>>> supports intellectual property and privacy rights at the same time amusing,
>>>> because you know, the only way we have to enforce property rights on
>>>> information is precisely having full control of it, using massive
>>>> surveillance systems.
>>>>
>>>> 2015-09-07 8:44 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>>>>
>>>>> Why: What I say to someone else is my property I decide with whom to
>>>>> share it. Its my decision. Its a principle. It doesn’t matter what it is, a
>>>>> subversive comment or a Happy Birthday note. I do not want anyone else to
>>>>> read it! Whoever doesn’t respect that doesn’t deserve my respect...
>>>>>
>>>>> "communications being intercepted and who we speak to known to people
>>>>> we would like to conceal this from is that once we have The Perfect
>>>>> end-to-end encrypted, decentralised, distributed, privacy preserving
>>>>> communication tool that everybody in the world uses, we actually don’t have
>>>>> anything meaningful to say over it."
>>>>>
>>>>> Dude, there has been a constant in history which is that most people
>>>>> don't have anything meaningful to say in any medium. Let the general
>>>>> populace cannibalize themselves, that's their choice, but those who are
>>>>> actually alive need a way to communicate without prosecution. Stop worrying
>>>>> about everyone else and focus on the things that you as an individual find
>>>>> important. Similar individuals who share a vision will be drawn together.
>>>>> It's never been about saving the world and it never will be.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> What one finds worthless might for someone else something...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sep 6, 2015 3:21 PM, "Arturo Filastò" <arturo@???> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I apologise in advance if what I talk about may appear to be a little
>>>>>> be off topic, but by reading this thread and in particular the words of
>>>>>> Jaromil and Amir I believe this is fertile ground in which to express some
>>>>>> of my ideas.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The more time goes by the more disillusioned I become about some
>>>>>> aspects of these so called “movements” close to the
>>>>>> anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia sub-system.
>>>>>> What actually worries me much more than all of our communications
>>>>>> being intercepted and who we speak to known to people we would like to
>>>>>> conceal this from is that once we have The Perfect end-to-end encrypted,
>>>>>> decentralised, distributed, privacy preserving communication tool that
>>>>>> everybody in the world uses, we actually don’t have anything meaningful to
>>>>>> say over it.
>>>>>> What use is crypto and these tools to us if we don’t have an idea or
>>>>>> a plan as to what we should do with it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I see this brainwashing being particularly prevalent in the Berlin
>>>>>> scene and it makes me sick and that is one of the reasons why some years
>>>>>> ago I fled the city promising to never live here again.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other aspect is that I sometimes have some serious problems
>>>>>> understanding what are the motivations and the ideals underpinning the
>>>>>> behaviours of certain people in this realm and have been stung by this in
>>>>>> the past. Said differently it doesn’t mean that if two people are
>>>>>> interested in doing the same thing, they are both doing it for the same
>>>>>> reason. The reason, in my opinion, is actually the most important thing and
>>>>>> agree on what to do is just not enough, we should also agree on WHY we do
>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This lack of vision and common shared objective makes me often doubt
>>>>>> if I should continue focussing on what it is I am focussing on and if I
>>>>>> should instead move to tackle other more important and relevant problems.
>>>>>> The times I have stopped a moment to look around and listen to what
>>>>>> the earth is telling us I realise that surveillance and technological
>>>>>> control is only just a small piece of this puzzle. If we continue in what
>>>>>> we are doing, in not too long we will completely fuck ourselves. We have
>>>>>> actually already fucked ourselves, the club of Rome warned us of this
>>>>>> already in 1972, but nobody listened to their warning that if nothing were
>>>>>> to be done there would not be any turning back. We are now too late. We are
>>>>>> fucked. All we can do is extend our the lifetime of humanity, but what has
>>>>>> been done is the last century is now IRREVERSIBLE.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Going back to the main topic in question I have a hard time
>>>>>> understanding why certain people are doing what they do. To make an example
>>>>>> I don’t understand why Cody Wilson is so much into this idea of making
>>>>>> guns. What is the vision there? What is the end goal?
>>>>>> Is it really necessary to fuck up a beautiful technology such as 3d
>>>>>> printing to make a political statement? In a way it’s as if somebody were
>>>>>> to publish schemes on how to use enzymes to build a bioweapon, hence
>>>>>> realising the threat that people proposing more regulation on biohacking
>>>>>> are using to justify it.
>>>>>> Groups in the past have overthrown their own government without the
>>>>>> need of 3d printed guns and let’s be frank you are not going to supply an
>>>>>> army with plastic guns and expect them to have a chance against the US
>>>>>> government. I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Again I am sorry if this is a long off-topic rant, but I wanted to
>>>>>> get these things off my chest and I hope that somebody here can in some way
>>>>>> relate to it. Some of the people I have spoken to about ideas have not
>>>>>> given the importance I believe this problem deserves and I believe this is
>>>>>> caused by the anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia sect brainwashing that I
>>>>>> see going on all around me.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ~ Arturo
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
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