Pablo,
Do you have a defeater that an optimal morality that exists outside of time
and space should not exist?

Maybe I am in error, but whose to say there can't exist one?

On Tue, Sep 8, 2015 at 12:30 PM, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:

> Optimal morality, the sharp division of good and evil, the "perpetual
> motion" of philosophy. There's nothing more ideological than the idea of a
> perfect ideology. Humans have individual and collective interests that are
> in permanent conflict, therefore there will never be a single way
> of empirically classifying belief systems by how good or bad they're. The
> amount of confirmation bias present in religious people is measured by
> their proselytism.
>
> 2015-09-08 16:21 GMT+02:00 Jonathan Valiente <tinkeringengr@???>:
>
>> Hello Arturo,
>>
>> Pardon my interjection, but perhaps you will appreciate my perspective --
>> regardless, it is a duty to provide pertinent information to those around
>> you.
>>
>> I applaud the efforts of the anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia
>> community, but I find the problems that beset our global society are
>> moral and not technological.
>>
>> I would make the argument that technology is amoral. We choose how to
>> apply technology, for great good or great evil. Therefore, the efforts of
>> humanity should be directed towards the moral behavior of people in systems
>> of interaction.
>>
>> Such a direction yields less utopian outcomes. For each actor is free to
>> choose in what manner they use their time on this earth. And inasmuch as
>> limited-humans can define an optimal morality in which we should all
>> subscribe, it is still up to individuals to accept or reject.
>>
>> I sympathize with the champions of technological leverage. Perhaps the
>> train of thought goes, if only we create systems that subvert the status
>> quo, we no longer need to participate in the corrupt systems we’ve
>> inherited. While I very much desire such a thing/place, I still find
>> reservations in that it doesn’t address the moral issue at hand. So long as
>> morality is not adequately addressed, any revolution of any kind will be
>> subject to the incessant decay of human nature. You could suggest
>> theoretical proofs of safeguards and divisions of power, but given time,
>> corruption seems to be an innate historical fact. Maybe with more intellect
>> we will solve such issues?...I am doubtful because I don’t think intellect
>> is the ‘thing’ that will solve our issues -- even a supremely ignorant
>> person can share his/her resources while a sophisticated expert may be less
>> inclined.
>>
>> Are humans self-aware to see outside the inherited culture and scientific
>> understanding of the time to properly define what a corrupt individual is?
>> I think not. Attempts at incorruptible systems are admirable, but I
>> consider the human condition to be far too limiting.
>>
>> So by what basis or perspective do I claim all (myself included) humans
>> to be ignorant, uneducated, and supremely limited? I suppose my belief in
>> higher levels of organization unknown to the world at large i.e. God the
>> Creator. You could attach the entirety of presumptions when it comes to
>> such a volatile statement, but I would hope the rigorous intellectual could
>> entertain the thought without subjecting me to the same ideological box of
>> others who claim to speak with the authority of God.
>>
>> I believe the optimal morality has been defined by Jesus Christ. I
>> believe that what we see is *not* what we get as history so clearly
>> displays -- and while some may consider our little speck of dust floating
>> in the cosmos to be the entirety of human experience, I consider it to be
>> the training ground for guiding corrupt beings towards incorruption. I
>> believe knowledge of such things comes from the spiritual dimension, to
>> any individual humble and willing to submit to the will of God.
>>
>> I am here to tell you that the *only true authority of God* has been
>> restored to this earth in this critical time to prepare for the Second
>> Coming of Jesus Christ and that God does indeed commune with mankind via
>> the mechanism of sincere prayer. I believe these things to be a reality.
>>
>> Let us not use the logic of men to understand such grand concepts, for we
>> know from Kurt Gödel the limitations of logical systems. We also know If
>> we were born in ancient Greece we would reason with the framework of
>> understanding of the time e.g. the earth is composed of 4 elements: earth,
>> fire, wind, water. In current times we will reason according to the modern
>> framework of understanding, still limited nonetheless. Unfortunately it is
>> an impossibility for you to checksum the integrity of this message. All I
>> can do is encourage you to ask the appropriate questions and to *seek
>> knowledge from the spiritual dimension* with the aid of the current
>> prophet of God (Thomas Monson) and the Book Of Mormon which is a second
>> witness of Jesus Christ and supports the Bible -- It clarifies many of the
>> adulterations found therein. Knock and it shall be opened, seek and ye
>> shall find. Best wishes.
>>
>> I apologize if my line of reasoning appears simplistic. I chose to be
>> concise over verbose.
>> https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm?lang=eng
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 6, 2015 at 1:21 PM, Arturo Filastò <arturo@???>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I apologise in advance if what I talk about may appear to be a little be
>>> off topic, but by reading this thread and in particular the words of
>>> Jaromil and Amir I believe this is fertile ground in which to express some
>>> of my ideas.
>>>
>>> The more time goes by the more disillusioned I become about some aspects
>>> of these so called “movements” close to the
>>> anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia sub-system.
>>> What actually worries me much more than all of our communications being
>>> intercepted and who we speak to known to people we would like to conceal
>>> this from is that once we have The Perfect end-to-end encrypted,
>>> decentralised, distributed, privacy preserving communication tool that
>>> everybody in the world uses, we actually don’t have anything meaningful to
>>> say over it.
>>> What use is crypto and these tools to us if we don’t have an idea or a
>>> plan as to what we should do with it?
>>>
>>> I see this brainwashing being particularly prevalent in the Berlin scene
>>> and it makes me sick and that is one of the reasons why some years ago I
>>> fled the city promising to never live here again.
>>>
>>> The other aspect is that I sometimes have some serious problems
>>> understanding what are the motivations and the ideals underpinning the
>>> behaviours of certain people in this realm and have been stung by this in
>>> the past. Said differently it doesn’t mean that if two people are
>>> interested in doing the same thing, they are both doing it for the same
>>> reason. The reason, in my opinion, is actually the most important thing and
>>> agree on what to do is just not enough, we should also agree on WHY we do
>>> it.
>>>
>>> This lack of vision and common shared objective makes me often doubt if
>>> I should continue focussing on what it is I am focussing on and if I should
>>> instead move to tackle other more important and relevant problems.
>>> The times I have stopped a moment to look around and listen to what the
>>> earth is telling us I realise that surveillance and technological control
>>> is only just a small piece of this puzzle. If we continue in what we are
>>> doing, in not too long we will completely fuck ourselves. We have actually
>>> already fucked ourselves, the club of Rome warned us of this already in
>>> 1972, but nobody listened to their warning that if nothing were to be done
>>> there would not be any turning back. We are now too late. We are fucked.
>>> All we can do is extend our the lifetime of humanity, but what has been
>>> done is the last century is now IRREVERSIBLE.
>>>
>>> Going back to the main topic in question I have a hard time
>>> understanding why certain people are doing what they do. To make an example
>>> I don’t understand why Cody Wilson is so much into this idea of making
>>> guns. What is the vision there? What is the end goal?
>>> Is it really necessary to fuck up a beautiful technology such as 3d
>>> printing to make a political statement? In a way it’s as if somebody were
>>> to publish schemes on how to use enzymes to build a bioweapon, hence
>>> realising the threat that people proposing more regulation on biohacking
>>> are using to justify it.
>>> Groups in the past have overthrown their own government without the need
>>> of 3d printed guns and let’s be frank you are not going to supply an army
>>> with plastic guns and expect them to have a chance against the US
>>> government. I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy it.
>>>
>>> Again I am sorry if this is a long off-topic rant, but I wanted to get
>>> these things off my chest and I hope that somebody here can in some way
>>> relate to it. Some of the people I have spoken to about ideas have not
>>> given the importance I believe this problem deserves and I believe this is
>>> caused by the anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia sect brainwashing that I
>>> see going on all around me.
>>>
>>> ~ Arturo
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
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