On Thu, Jun 04, 2015 at 05:46:03PM -0500, William C Vaughan wrote:
> I don't know specifically about Devuan porting to to the iPhone, but it
> would be marvelous if some sort of Linux could be ported to that hardware.
It might be easier to start with Android devices -- at least they are
supposed to be rootable so you can install other OSs. Yes, I know
about cyanogenmod. But I'd like a real Linux on my tablet and phone.
It would require some arcane knowledge about Android boot procedures --
just to get it onto the hardware, a window manager that knows about
touch screens as being different from mouses, and for the phones,
relatively high-level but usable device drivers for the phone hardware.
I have faith in the free-software community -- Usable user-level
software that operates well with the touch interface will appear when
this base is ready.
> My main gripe with closed OS devices like Apple productions is that
> eventually, regardless of the quality of the hardware, the company
> withdraws OS support and updates. I have a 10 year old MacBook Pro which
> still functions just fine, but soon after Jobs passed Apple withdrew all OS
> support - security patches and other updates. I wiped out OSX and
> installed LinuxMint on it, and with a few tweaks like fan cooling software,
> everything works just fine. I'm guessing I'll get at least another couple
> of years of use on it. Apple will follow similar patterns with iOS
> devices, forcing purchase of new hardware every 3 years or so. Put a slim
> version of Linux on a 3 year old iPhone/iPad and voila, another few years
> of use.
But the Appke "computers" are a lot freer than the iOS devices. It's
the iOS devices (such as the iPhones you started your message with)
that are the real problem.
> Now if they'd just revive replaceable batteries .... Anyway, I'm a
> lurker on this list and wish you the best in pursuing what might just prove
> to be a fine Linux fork.
You *were* a lurker on this list. You just posted.
> I just hope internal fighting can be minimized.
> Cheers!
>
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 4:14 PM, <dng-request@???> wrote:
>
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> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. Re: straw poll, non-free firmware for installers (Franco Lanza)
> > 2. Re: straw poll, non-free firmware for installers (Anto)
> > 3. Re: straw poll, non-free firmware for installers (Anto)
> > 4. Re: straw poll, non-free firmware for installers (Steve Litt)
> > 5. Re: straw poll, non-free firmware for installers (Apollia)
> > 6. Pie in the sky: Devuan on nonfree phones and tablets
> > (Hendrik Boom)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 21:26:42 +0200
> > From: Franco Lanza <nextime@???>
> > To: dng@???
> > Subject: Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
> > Message-ID: <20150604192642.GA29616@???>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > I think we can draw a line in this discussion this way:
> >
> > Daniel will implement the installer in the way he was saying,
> > adding non-free firmwares limited to the ones that if missed are
> > blocking for the installer ( so, nothing more than few firmwares for
> > things like network cards or wifi, for example ), with the choice for
> > the user to select them but disabled by default, and making the user
> > knowing that he is selecting a non-free firmware.
> >
> > This will be our default installer.
> >
> > When our infrastructure will use that installer to build the iso images,
> > a script will also build another image with all those non-free firmware
> > removed, and this will be our "free" image.
> >
> > Both will be marked as "official", and the name of the generated isos
> > will be something like devuan-jessie-...-full.iso and
> > devuan-jessie-...-free.iso
> >
> > This way i hope we will make all happy.
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > Franco (nextime) Lanza
> > Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy
> > SIP://casa@???
> > web: http://www.nexlab.net
> >
> > NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org
> > you can download my public key at:
> > http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers
> > Key ID = D6132D50
> > Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50
> > -----------------------------------
> > echo
> > 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq
> > | dc
> > -----------------------------------
> >
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > Desc: not available
> > URL: <
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/dng/attachments/20150604/072f1a55/attachment.sig
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 21:31:29 +0200
> > From: Anto <aryanto@???>
> > To: dng@???
> > Subject: Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
> > Message-ID: <5570A791.9000607@???>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> >
> >
> >
> > On 04/06/15 20:51, Steve Litt wrote:
> > >
> > > .
> > > <snip>
> > > .
> > >
> > > Imagine the difference...
> > >
> > > You come home from Costco clutching your brand new laptop, all hot and
> > > bothered to install Devuan because you've heard it's simpler and better
> > > made than the others. You boot your Devuan DVD, and it tells you your
> > > network card needs a firmware. Fortunately for you, the documentation
> > > *screamed* that you might need nonfree firmware, walked you through
> > > exactly how to thumb-drive it, you use a different computer to put it
> > > on the thumb drive, stick it in, try again, and the install goes
> > > perfectly. Devuan was every bit as good as you thought.
> > >
> > > Bottom line: Be on the same team as reasonable users.
> > >
> > > SteveT
> > >
> > > Steve Litt
> > > June 2015 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> > >
> >
> > Hello Steve,
> >
> > According to the approach that Daniel suggested as I understood it, the
> > story is a bit different...
> >
> > You come home from Costco clutching your brand new laptop, all hot and
> > bothered to install Devuan because you've heard it's simpler and better
> > made than the others. You boot your Devuan DVD, and it tells you your
> > network card needs a firmware. Fortunately for you, the documentation
> > *screamed* that you might need nonfree firmware, walked you through
> > exactly how to thumb-drive it, you use a different computer to put it on
> > the thumb drive, stick it in, try again, The installer gives you the
> > option to choose the firmware from the available list or abort the
> > installation. As you trust the firmware, you select it. If that would be
> > proprietary firmware, you will be given a license agreement to accept or
> > reject it (to abort the installation). After you read (assuming you have
> > time) and accept the license agreement, the install goes perfectly.
> > Devuan was every bit as good as you thought.
> >
> > I am not sure thought if the installer would really do that. Especially
> > on the proprietary part, that looks exactly the same as what Windows
> > does (at work, I don't have any other choice rather than using Windows).
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Anto
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2015 21:35:13 +0200
> > From: Anto <aryanto@???>
> > To: dng@???
> > Subject: Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
> > Message-ID: <5570A871.6060701@???>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> >
> >
> >
> > On 04/06/15 21:31, Anto wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On 04/06/15 20:51, Steve Litt wrote:
> > >>
> > >> .
> > >> <snip>
> > >> .
> > >>
> > >> Imagine the difference...
> > >>
> > >> You come home from Costco clutching your brand new laptop, all hot and
> > >> bothered to install Devuan because you've heard it's simpler and better
> > >> made than the others. You boot your Devuan DVD, and it tells you your
> > >> network card needs a firmware. Fortunately for you, the documentation
> > >> *screamed* that you might need nonfree firmware, walked you through
> > >> exactly how to thumb-drive it, you use a different computer to put it
> > >> on the thumb drive, stick it in, try again, and the install goes
> > >> perfectly. Devuan was every bit as good as you thought.
> > >>
> > >> Bottom line: Be on the same team as reasonable users.
> > >>
> > >> SteveT
> > >>
> > >> Steve Litt
> > >> June 2015 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> > >> http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> > >>
> > >
> > > Hello Steve,
> > >
> > > According to the approach that Daniel suggested as I understood it,
> > > the story is a bit different...
> > >
> > > You come home from Costco clutching your brand new laptop, all hot and
> > > bothered to install Devuan because you've heard it's simpler and
> > > better made than the others. You boot your Devuan DVD, and it tells
> > > you your network card needs a firmware. Fortunately for you, the
> > > documentation *screamed* that you might need nonfree firmware, walked
> > > you through exactly how to thumb-drive it, you use a different
> > > computer to put it on the thumb drive, stick it in, try again, The
> > > installer gives you the option to choose the firmware from the
> > > available list or abort the installation. As you trust the firmware,
> > > you select it. If that would be proprietary firmware, you will be
> > > given a license agreement to accept or reject it (to abort the
> > > installation). After you read (assuming you have time) and accept the
> > > license agreement, the install goes perfectly. Devuan was every bit as
> > > good as you thought.
> > >
> > > I am not sure thought if the installer would really do that.
> > > Especially on the proprietary part, that looks exactly the same as
> > > what Windows does (at work, I don't have any other choice rather than
> > > using Windows).
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Anto
> > >
> >
> > Off topic.
> >
> > I am not sure why my Thunderbird does not strike-through this sentence:
> > *Fortunately for you, the documentation *screamed* that you might need
> > nonfree firmware, walked you through exactly how to thumb-drive it, you
> > use a different computer to put it on the thumb drive, stick it in, try
> > again,*. So my email looks strange.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 15:38:00 -0400
> > From: Steve Litt <slitt@???>
> > To: dng@???
> > Subject: Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
> > Message-ID: <20150604153800.77307ff9@???>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> >
> > On Thu, 04 Jun 2015 21:31:29 +0200
> > Anto <aryanto@???> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > On 04/06/15 20:51, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > >
> > > > .
> > > > <snip>
> > > > .
> > > >
> > > > Imagine the difference...
> > > >
> > > > You come home from Costco clutching your brand new laptop, all hot
> > > > and bothered to install Devuan because you've heard it's simpler
> > > > and better made than the others. You boot your Devuan DVD, and it
> > > > tells you your network card needs a firmware. Fortunately for you,
> > > > the documentation *screamed* that you might need nonfree firmware,
> > > > walked you through exactly how to thumb-drive it, you use a
> > > > different computer to put it on the thumb drive, stick it in, try
> > > > again, and the install goes perfectly. Devuan was every bit as good
> > > > as you thought.
> > > >
> > > > Bottom line: Be on the same team as reasonable users.
> > > >
> > > > SteveT
> > > >
> > > > Steve Litt
> > > > June 2015 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> > > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hello Steve,
> > >
> > > According to the approach that Daniel suggested as I understood it,
> > > the story is a bit different...
> > >
> > > You come home from Costco clutching your brand new laptop, all hot
> > > and bothered to install Devuan because you've heard it's simpler and
> > > better made than the others. You boot your Devuan DVD, and it tells
> > > you your network card needs a firmware. Fortunately for you, the
> > > documentation *screamed* that you might need nonfree firmware, walked
> > > you through exactly how to thumb-drive it, you use a different
> > > computer to put it on the thumb drive, stick it in, try again, The
> > > installer gives you the option to choose the firmware from the
> > > available list or abort the installation. As you trust the firmware,
> > > you select it. If that would be proprietary firmware, you will be
> > > given a license agreement to accept or reject it (to abort the
> > > installation). After you read (assuming you have time) and accept the
> > > license agreement, the install goes perfectly. Devuan was every bit
> > > as good as you thought.
> > >
> > > I am not sure thought if the installer would really do that.
> > > Especially on the proprietary part, that looks exactly the same as
> > > what Windows does (at work, I don't have any other choice rather than
> > > using Windows).
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Anto
> >
> > Yes.
> >
> > The proprietary firmware you choose will look the same as Windows. One
> > tiny part of your $450 laptop will be nonfree, as opposed to the entire
> > OS. The perfect is the enemy of the good.
> >
> > It would be cool if the list you mentioned could tell whether each
> > firmware was free or not, so you could use that as part of your
> > decision.
> >
> > SteveT
> >
> > Steve Litt
> > June 2015 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
> > http://www.troubleshooters.com/key
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 5
> > Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 16:20:33 -0400
> > From: Apollia <apollia112@???>
> > To: dng@???
> > Subject: Re: [Dng] straw poll, non-free firmware for installers
> > Message-ID:
> > <
> > CABU-1G-R4SiO0VihkTtkh1Mh9rmVtiWhDOJhTvU1E8XNsJQyEg@???>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 4, 2015 at 3:26 PM, Franco Lanza <nextime@???> wrote:
> >
> > > I think we can draw a line in this discussion this way:
> > >
> > > Daniel will implement the installer in the way he was saying,
> > > adding non-free firmwares limited to the ones that if missed are
> > > blocking for the installer ( so, nothing more than few firmwares for
> > > things like network cards or wifi, for example ), with the choice for
> > > the user to select them but disabled by default, and making the user
> > > knowing that he is selecting a non-free firmware.
> > >
> > > This will be our default installer.
> > >
> > > When our infrastructure will use that installer to build the iso images,
> > > a script will also build another image with all those non-free firmware
> > > removed, and this will be our "free" image.
> > >
> > > Both will be marked as "official", and the name of the generated isos
> > > will be something like devuan-jessie-...-full.iso and
> > > devuan-jessie-...-free.iso
> > >
> > > This way i hope we will make all happy.
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Franco (nextime) Lanza
> > > Lonate Pozzolo (VA) - Italy
> > > SIP://casa@???
> > > web: http://www.nexlab.net
> > >
> > > NO TCPA: http://www.no1984.org
> > > you can download my public key at:
> > > http://danex.nexlab.it/nextime.asc || Key Servers
> > > Key ID = D6132D50
> > > Key fingerprint = 66ED 5211 9D59 DA53 1DF7 4189 DFED F580 D613 2D50
> > > -----------------------------------
> > > echo
> > >
> > 16i[q]sa[ln0=aln100%Pln100/snlbx]sbA0D212153574F444E49572045535520454D20454B414D204F54204847554F4E452059415020544F4E4E4143205345544147204C4C4942snlbxq
> > > | dc
> > > -----------------------------------
> > >
> >
> > Sounds good to me!
> >
> > The only thing I'd change is the names of the ISOs, since "full" vs. "free"
> > might imply to some people that the "free" version is incomplete and
> > inferior to the "full" version.
> >
> > I would prefer to imply that the non-libre version is the flawed inferior
> > version.
> >
> > So, maybe names like:
> >
> > devuan-jessie-...-nonfree-nonlibre.iso
> > and
> > devuan-jessie-...-freelibre.iso
> >
> >
> > I definitely agree with having both versions, even though I try to avoid
> > anything non-libre.
> >
> > I would love to switch to purely libre hardware if I had the money, but, I
> > don't, and most people in the world might not either, judging by this page:
> > http://www.globalissues.org/article/26/poverty-facts-and-stats
> >
> > So, I definitely think it's best for Devuan to be installable on as wide a
> > variety of hardware as possible.
> >
> >
> > I would find it particularly amusing if it were possible to install Devuan
> > on an iPhone. :-) Or anything else the average person wouldn't expect
> > Linux to work on.
> >
> > Someone gave me an iPhone 4S a few years ago in the hope that I would use
> > it to make a living writing proprietary software. Since I wasn't willing
> > to do that, it's not much use to me, so, maybe I'll experiment with trying
> > to get Devuan to work on it someday. :-) (Unless I hear that it's totally
> > unfeasible.)
> >
> > Probably just a daydream, at least for now, because I have so many other
> > things I need to get done at the moment, and also because it's very likely
> > beyond my current skills. I haven't yet even attempted to build _any_
> > Linux from scratch yet, though I still intend to someday.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> > Apollia
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL: <
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/private/dng/attachments/20150604/cb552acb/attachment.html
> > >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2015 17:14:04 -0400
> > From: Hendrik Boom <hendrik@???>
> > To: dng@???
> > Subject: [Dng] Pie in the sky: Devuan on nonfree phones and tablets
> > Message-ID: <20150604211404.GA14998@???>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 04, 2015 at 04:20:33PM -0400, Apollia wrote:
> > >
> > > I would find it particularly amusing if it were possible to install
> > Devuan
> > > on an iPhone. :-) Or anything else the average person wouldn't expect
> > > Linux to work on.
> > >
> > > Someone gave me an iPhone 4S a few years ago in the hope that I would use
> > > it to make a living writing proprietary software. Since I wasn't willing
> > > to do that, it's not much use to me, so, maybe I'll experiment with
> > trying
> > > to get Devuan to work on it someday. :-) (Unless I hear that it's
> > totally
> > > unfeasible.)
> >
> > I would *love* to replace Android with Devuan on my ASUS Transformer
> > tablet, initially as dual-boot until I manage to migrate completely.
> >
> > Pie in the sky, for now.
> >
> > -- hendrik
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Subject: Digest Footer
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dng mailing list
> > Dng@???
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > End of Dng Digest, Vol 9, Issue 21
> > **********************************
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Move from rim to hub; know the wheel. - G. Buddha
> _______________________________________________
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Re: [Dng] Dng Digest, Vol 9, Issue …
