altoid via Dng said on Fri, 01 Dec 2023 08:48:28 -0300

>Hello:
>
>On 1 Dec 2023 at 1:19, Steve Litt wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 29 Nov 2023 10:27:03 -0300
>>altoid via Dng <dng@???> wrote:
>> I fully agree, let's stick with sysvinit ...
>No, not my quote, but it does not matter.
>
>> An init system consists of both a PID1 and a ...
>> ... relatively easy to use the PID1 of sysvinit and ...
>> Simple instructions ...
>
>All very nice for all those who are savvy enough to delve into the
>introcate workings of init sofware and all that comes with it.

It's not that intricate. I think runit is simpler than sysvinit.

>.
>I've spent almost 30 years in and around IT (MS and Linux) and I am
>not.
>
>I know my way around most things and get out of issues that crop up
>(self inflicted or not) with the help of different forums, such as
>DNG and Dev1.
>
>And my money is on 95% (or more) of Devuan users being *exactly* like
>me.
>
>> ... a PID1 of sysvinit and slowly migrating daemon by
>> daemon from sysvinit to runit is easy and a good way to learn ...
>Well ...
>
>I'm sorry to have to be the one to break it to you:
>
>------------> that - is - not - going - to - happen <---------

It's happening all the time. All sorts of people run Daemontools, runit
or s6 in parallel with their current init system. People make that move
all the time.

>
>> ... not as pessimistic about the future of Devuan ...
>The writing has been on the wall for many years now.
>
>From the very moment that the Poettering led systemd putsch reared
>it's ugly head over the Linux ecosystem.
>
>And the steps taken in the past couple of years by the Debian camp
>are only repainting it in bright fluorescent red, over and over
>again.

Of course your preceding three paragraphs are absolutely true. Back in
2014 I said, and was quoted widely, "they won't stop until the cat
command requires systemd."

But there's another dynamic here, a philosophical one. Us guys who grew
up in the 1960's were very political, in a hands-on way, and we had a
saying: "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the
problem." Right now there's a raging thread on the Alpine list because
Alpine apparently won't play nice with Gmail in the context of blind
people, and everyone's yelling. Hey, if Gmail is screwing things up,
don't yell at Alpine, get the hell off Gmail. Those who insist on
staying with Gmail are absolutely part of the problem.

I remember somewhere in the mid 10's there was a mass exodus from
Ubuntu because, wait for it, they switched from Gnome to Unity. The
sky was falling. Meanwhile, it takes about 20 minutes to switch from
Unity to LXDE, Openbox, XFCE, IceWM, or pretty much any other WM/DE
except (urk) KDE. But they left Ubuntu to avoid that 20 minutes of work.

Likewise, there's little Debian can sabotage that people who know
shellscripts and the basics of internals can't undo, by themselves,
without assistance.

>
>Not to mention the fact of Poettering being the newest addition to
>the MS roster.

poettering's a scumbag, so this is not the slightest bit surprising.

>
>I suppose that you think it was simple coincidence?

:-) I looked at my email archives and saw that your email account has
been posting to DNG for about 20 days, so you didn't know me in the
good old days. Let's just say that I was considered a wingnut
conspiracy theorist who saw all sorts of motivations that ran counter
to Hanlon's Razor. They contend "never attribute to malice that which
can be adequately explained by neglect, ignorance or incompetence." I
believe in Litt's Razor, "Follow the money!"

No, I know dam well it wasn't coincidence. :-)

>
>> ... if you're pessimistic ...
>Yes, I am.
>Very much so.
>
>Please (2x please?) do not take what I about to write *personally*
>because it is *not*.
>
>After reading your post I am even more pesimistic.

You know, if Debian goes all in to move to the dark side, there's
nothing preventing the Devuan project from becoming a derivative of Void
or some other *good* distro. Just add the features/accouterments that
make Devuan what it is.

>
>> ... it behooves you to learn a new init ...
>No. It does not, not by a longshot.
>
>The init software used in a Linux distribution has to be absolutely
>transparent to the Devuan user

Runit is as transparent as it gets.

> and it has to be in the hands of
>capable coders/developers and maintainers.

Runit was superbly crafted by Garit Pape, and is now maintained by the
Void project. Runit has steadfastly refused to adopt marketing features
to satisfy tire kickers who say "but can it do [fill in any silly
systemd capability]. Runit is the same as it was in 2014. Simple,
secure, and unchanging. It's been decades since Eric Raymond authored
Fetchmail, and it's completely unmaintained, but I still use it every
three minutes. Why? Because it still does the same job as it did in the
1990's, and does it very well. And it's very simple.

>
>It has adjust to the basic principle of simple, compact, clear,
>modular, and extensible code that can be easily maintained and
>repurposed by developers other than its creators.

Your preceding paragraph exactly describes runit.

>
>ie: not the pile of horse manure that systemd is.

:-) That's a pretty low bar. :-)

>
>All we need now (the most urgent matter at hand) is to make sure
>Devuan survives.

I'm pretty sure it will. And like I said, if Debian makes things
impossible, Devuan can become a derivative of a different foundational
distro.

>
>There is no time for Devuan end users to start learing about init
>software and all its intricacies.

This is exactly the time for Devuan end users to learn these things. As
a matter of fact, for somebody not wanting to boss their box instead of
having their box boss them, I don't understand their objection to
systemd. I mean it kinda sorta works from an end user point of view.
Only if you care what's under the hood and are willing to tinker would
you perceive the incredible mess that is systemd.

SteveT

Steve Litt

Autumn 2023 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21