Hi Manfred,

Manfred Wassmann via Dng <dng@???> writes:

> On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 10:22 AM aitor <aitor_czr@???> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 6/8/23 11:18, Manfred Wassmann via Dng wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 6, 2023 at 5:54 AM Olaf Meeuwissen
>> <paddy-hack@???> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Manfred Wassmann via Dng <dng@???> writes:
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 4, 2023 at 11:57 AM tito via Dng <dng@???> wrote:
>> [1] https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20230721.011329.adaba746.en.html
>>
>> In my understanding of Ian's post, the point was to install Debian with
>> an init other than systemd from within the installer.
>>
>> Sorry, but then your understanding is wrong: In his blog post Ian
>> clearly states: "systemd refuses to allow itself to be deinstalled, if
>> it is already running, so if you boot into the systemd system you
>> can’t then switch init system."

Sorry, I missed that while re-scanning Ian's post.
However, Ian continues right after that with:

This is why the switch is best done at install time. If you’re too
late, there are instructions for changing init system
post-installation[1].

[1]: https://wiki.debian.org/Init#Changing_the_init_system_-_on_a_running_system

where I added the link to stay true to Ian's post and note that it talks
about bullseye, not bookworm. And, yes, Ian's continuation directly
refutes the "systemd refuses to allow itself to be deinstalled, if it is
already running" part but I think the main point of his post was
installing without systemd so you don't run into that post-install mess.

Mucking around in a console during the installation is not for everybody
so there is value in the Devuan installer where you can just take your
pick of init system and have the installer take care of things for you.

>> That's exactly Olaf's understanding. Ian explains how to switch a
>> different init system during the installation process in Debian.
>
> No it isn't, definitely not. My quote from Ian's blog post explains
> WHY he resorts to removing systemd at the installation stage and not
> afterwards. So the point of Ian's blog post was not simply /"to
> install Debian with an init other than systemd from within the
> installer"/ as Olaf wrote but to /"to install Debian with
> an init other than systemd from within the installer BECAUSE IT'S NOT
> POSSIBLE AFTERWARDS"/ and that was what me ant tito referred to. So
> Olaf was wrong when he wrote /"What you and tito are talking about is
> cleaning up after the 'harm' has been done. That's a different
> story."/ because it obvioussly is part of the story.
> To be clear, it was Ian Jackson and NOT ME who came up with the
> argument systemd could not be removed from a live installation.
>
> [...]

Hope this helps,
--
Olaf Meeuwissen