Hello:

On 4 Aug 2023 at 13:57, tito via Dng wrote:

> in bookworm you cannot remove systemd even if you try ...
> ... unless you delete it by hand.

I have been trying to follow this thread with relative success as
most of it (if not all) is rather over my head.

I'm just a happy Devuan user with just a *bit* more hands-on
experience/understanding than the average one.

That said, why are we *still* on the subject of removing systemd from
bookworm?

>From what I have read, Debian bookworm comes with systemd as the
*default* init system and does not consider any other init system to
be suitable or supported.

That is a fact of life and I really do not see a way aound that at
the moment.

At this point systemd has gained a lot of traction and (make no
mistake about it) has a *lot* of money behind it.

To paraphrase a US government sponsored television ad from the
60's/80's:

"Do you know where your Poettering is now?" [1]

Even if people outside Debian actually manage to work their way
inside/around it, find possible loopholes, etc. (the theme of the
post that started all these threads/posts), all that *will* come to
an end when Debian devs finally close all possibilities of success.

Something that has been happening for the longest while:

https://www.theregister.com/2023/08/02/systemd_254/?td=rt-9cp

My view is that Devuan should follow the basic Linux philosophy (do
one thing and do it well) and concentrate all its efforts on its
survival.

Nothing else.

In my view, that means quickly deciding on *one* init sytem and
concentrate *all* efforts on making absolutely sure that it can/will
work on *any* Debian release.

If that can be achieved and Devuan survives the present situation,
then 'Holy Choice' can be restored by seeing about another init
system.

Not before.

Sounds heretic, I know.
But remember:

"Dead men don't pay debts" [2]

Likewise, a dead OS has *no* choices to offer to anyone.

Just my $0.02.

Best,

JHM

[1]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Do_you_know_where_your_children_are%3F

[2]
https://www2.bfi.org.uk/films-tv-people/4ce2b8371f473