On Tue, 13 Jun 2017 10:45:19 +0200
Antony Stone <Antony.Stone@???> wrote:

> On Tuesday 13 June 2017 08:19:54 Jaromil wrote:


> > but not GNOME! As with systemd, we are confident this won't hinder
> > user's freedom of choice since one can always go use Ubuntu or
> > Debian which are offering that.
>
> So, you're saying that if you want Gnome, you have to use systemd -
> no way round that?

Yes, with a caveat. The caveat is that some distros, such as Funtoo,
have gone into Gnome and turned off, removed or stubbed calls to
systemd.


>
> > as we managed to reach these goals now we'll move forward making our
> > distro as universal as possible, hence supporting all DEs that can
> > work without systemd.
>
> Is there a short answer (or can you point me at docs) to the question
> "what makes a DE dependent on systemd?"

When the DE uses parts of systemd's API or interface or whatever you
want to call it, that causes the dependency. Such use is a choice by
the DE programmers, as mentioned by Hendrik. One might wonder why the
DE programmers would insist on an API from an early-boot process. Why
should the DE know about the init or vice versa? The technical answer
is that they shouldn't: No reasonable architectural design would favor
such interdependency. This is not a technological issue: It's something
else. Consider that the people encouraging Gnome<->systemd integration
are Gnome, systemd, FreeDesktop.Org and Red Hat, those are the web
pages you should look at. Here's my favorite explanation:

http://asay.blogspot.ru/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html

In the preceding, search down the page for the first occurrence of the
word "complexity".

I'd like to point out one more thing: There's a price for giving up
systemd. If a specific look and feel, or a specific workflow, or a
specific program is of higher priority than your computer having a sane
software architecture with modularity, encapsulation, interchangeable
parts, DIY-friendliness and Linux-obvious testpoints, then a systemd
distro is probably your best choice.

However, if a reasonable software architecture is of a higher priority,
then the way to handle it is to "just say no" to software trying to
force you into a specific init system (systemd). I'm pretty sure a
Gnome or KDE user could become extremely efficient with LXDE or Xfce or
Openbox + dmenu or fvwm or several others GOSFUIs
(http://troubleshooters.com/linux/gosfui.htm). Humans are remarkably
capable to work around their equipment (in this case the GOSFUI). Who
hasn't regularly driven a bicycle that steered to the left and a car
with not-so-good brakes? Switching between Gnome, KDE, LXDE and Xfce is
remarkably easy for the person who adopts the belief that [s]he is in
charge of the computer, and not vice versa.

The Gnome-liking person not capable of adopting that belief belongs on
a systemd-based distro, or better yet, Microsoft Windows, which is even
more a path of least resistance.

SteveT

Steve Litt
June 2017 featured book: The Key to Everyday Excellence
http://www.troubleshooters.com/key