How is free market capitalism based on hierarchy?

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 2:34 AM, Penny Gaff <pennygaffgallery@???>
wrote:

> Anarcho-capitalism is surely an oxymoron. Anarchy operates without
> hierarchy, capitalism is fundamentally based on hierarchy. So how can the
> two possibly be conflated?
> On Jul 11, 2016 7:44 PM, "psy" <epsylon@???> wrote:
>
>> Amir:
>> > Pablo, you made a good outline for a general anarchist theory which
>> > still needs some development because it leaves out a path for creating
>> > this society from our current context. Bookchin has very strong
>> > arguments for a sort of federal democracy by creating civil society
>> > movements that take political power through local municipalities. In
>> > Catalonia for instance, there's an anarchist cooperative we work with
>> > called the CIC (http://cooperativa.cat) organizing small local
>> > businesses and cooperatives to evade the economic system through
>> > economic disobedience, such as using the law to avoid paying tax (like
>> > the big corporations do). The Kurdish movements in Turkey switched from
>> > a struggle for de jure independence to a struggle for de facto
>> > independence heavily influenced by Bookchin's ideas of libertarian
>> > municipalism.
>> >
>> > Bookchin's ideas are refreshing because they point to a real path to
>> > political power that is actually very contemporary and being employed by
>> > anarchist groups in multiple places. Combined with free market mutualist
>> > or syndicalist ideas which give a path to economic power, and we have a
>> > solution for strong thriving anarchist societies. The key is civil
>> > society development and this is where the postmodernists like Nietzsche
>> > or Foucault have a massive contribution that point to big flaws in the
>> > fabric of our moral systems that are life-denying and the propensity for
>> > lying through rationalist positivism (which makes Objectivism look
>> > ridiculous). Philosophy influences scientific development and rational
>> > truth- words like central planning, command and control economy, and ...
>> > are old fashioned today. Instead we're more likely to use words like
>> > tipping point, butterfly effect, ...
>> >
>> > Ours is an age of movement, uncertainty and transition. By necessity
>> > anarchism has to change with the times. It feels that this age of
>> > materialist Marxism has tainted anarchist thought since Proudhon, making
>> > anarchism anachronistic and dogmatic at times. That's not to say that
>> > anarcho-communism has nothing valuable to offer. The liberating thing
>> > about anarchism is that every strain of anarchism (even
>> > anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism) tells us new interesting
>> > things, and offers up new strategies and tactics for fighting
>> > authoritarianism.
>> >
>> > By saying you are a proponent of anarcho-communism or anarcho-capitalism
>> > means you believe that questions of class and economy are the most
>> > important issues- not our ethics, how we administrate and govern, the
>> > relations between people and culture. However one philosophy gives us a
>> > history of experience for organizing economically. The original
>> > criticism of capitalism emerged from Proudhon, the anarcho-syndicalist
>> > and first person to call themselves an anarchist.
>> >
>> > The other philosophy gives us practical tools like Bitcoin, smart
>> > contracts and agorism. It also teaches us about economics and the
>> > destructive role played by central banks and corrupt government
>> > intervention in the economy. These are all useful, valuable ideas and we
>> > should not reject ideas completely without studying them all first, and
>> > then you deciding what to take, and what to leave.
>>
>> +1.
>>
>> Really nice explained mentioning Bookchin as a point to start.
>>
>> We can also talk about some opposite views: Freud.
>>
>> His theories are directly related with individualism ("I", "super-I",
>> etc..) which are intrinsically related, from a humanistic point of view,
>> with capitalism methods.
>>
>> Nietzsche... +1
>>
>> What about capitalistic dogma: "More Benefit for Less Cost"?
>>
>> Can an "anarcho-capitalist" tell me that follows that doctrine by using
>> contemporary market to engage anarchism?.
>>
>> Aren't they hidden "neoliberalism"?. For that to read
>> "anarcho-capitalism" for me sounds confusing.
>>
>> To be pragmatic doesn't means to be individualistic. Collaborative
>> pragmatism is a powerful tool. And capitalism, almost as I am realizing
>> it, trying to be as most objetivist as possible, is fundamentally based
>> on forgive problems derived by manufacture, such as plastics, CO2
>> emissions, etc, but also slavery processes on "third development"
>> countries like de-localization, tax evasions, etc...
>>
>> I think it is really easy to talk about "anarcho-capitalism" from a
>> social classes point of view. Mostly if you are on the Occident part
>> because capitalism has indeed "bourgeoisie".
>>
>> What about "anarcho-bourgeoisie"?.
>>
>> Maybe "anarcho-capitalists" are confused with "anarcho-bourgeoisie"
>> which is more related with Marx's anarchists doctrines...
>>
>> > psy:
>> >> You will cannot practice never anarchism by using capitalism.
>> >> You always will be subjugated to market rules which are really
>> >> anti-socials.
>> >
>> > That's a very dogmatic thing to say. How do you feel about projects
>> > organized by the Catalan cooperative which are using the free market to
>> > support socialist projects. Are they not practicing anarchism because
>> > they are using capitalism?
>>
>> Well. I am agree with an interventionist market in which products and
>> services are directly related with the ecological/human problems they
>> cause to be made. Before and after consume them.
>>
>> I am not agree with "free" market rules. Almost, with actual neo-market
>> doctrine based at offer/demand. I am agree with engage nature/humanity
>> more up than "tagged projects", etc. So social/cooperative individuals
>> greater than social technocracies.
>>
>> For that I on the way of that Catalan cooperative ideas. I just only
>> remarking that needs more next steps to be done. And that is not
>> "anarcho-capitalism" what they are trying.
>>
>> > If you like cooperatives, then you are supporting non-authoritarian
>> > socialism.
>>
>> Even mutualism. +1.
>>
>> > Nietzsche teaches us that we can create our own moral systems. There is
>> > nothing authoritative or intrinsically right. Just societies and values.
>> > And this is where it gets exciting- the Kurds are postmodernists. When
>> > you say this or that isn't anarchism remember Wikipedia:
>> >
>> > "Anarchism draws on many currents of thought and strategy. Anarchism
>> > does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world
>> > view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy."
>> >
>> > "Many types and traditions of anarchism exist, not all of which are
>> > mutually exclusive."
>> >
>> > Different strategies and tactics from different schools of anarchism can
>> > be used side by side, and mixed together in different ways to create new
>> > societies with different values. Anarchism is far too rich to reduce it
>> > down to a single school or even reject recognized schools in their
>> entirety.
>>
>> Totally agree.
>>
>> I just putting in context what "anarcho-capitalism" is giving to that
>> theories/practices.
>>
>> By the moment, I cannot see any good one to follow it at the point to
>> self-tag me as: "an anarcho-capitalist".
>>
>>
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