I truly love and admire Amir, but this guy Özer's got a point: you don't
abolish slavery by choosing better slave masters.

Diego

On Jun 28, 2016 6:42 PM, "Pablo" <pablovidal85@???> wrote:

> Will you attack Amir personally on every thread he intervenes just because
> you don't like each other? That would be really annoying.
>
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 10:00 PM, Özer Tayiz <otayiz@???> wrote:
>
>> Quoting Amir:
>> "This anarchist idea of rejecting the system. Of removing ourselves from
>> the mechanisms of power, is simply an isolation of anarchist politics
>> from civilization. For anarchists to seize power, they need to be
>> engaging with the body politic and thinking how they can seize cities
>> and towns under their control."
>>
>> *lol* could you possibly be more in self-conflict? State power is
>> monopoly on initiation of violence. Electoral politics is a popularity
>> contest to see who gets to use that power of violence. If you do join the
>> race of politics, by definition, you are bidding to be at the top of a
>> violent, centralized hierarchy, of initiation of violence.
>>
>> If you agree with non-aggression principle, you would want nothing to do
>> with the state or politics. Which is inherently violent.
>>
>> Thank you for outing yourself as a statist, while calling yourself
>> anarchist.
>>
>> "For anarchists to seize power" *lol*
>>
>> You are a power hungry statist. No true anarchist would seek power over
>> others.
>>
>> I have only power over my own life, and I have no interest in ruling
>> others. No rulers, no slaves.
>>
>> As long as there is something called a ruling class, a "government", it
>> doesn't matter if the ruler is more lenient to the slaves.
>>
>> Master-slave relationship is still there.
>>
>> Slavery will end when people stop demanding "government" or someone else
>> to solve their own problems. And when individuals take %100 full
>> responsibility of their own lives.
>>
>> If no one votes, no one applies to a government job, no one files for
>> taxes or licenses, no one feels the "duty" to obey any outside "authority"
>> government cannot sustain itself. It will collapse anyways. It is a
>> self-conflicting, destructive force.
>>
>> The closest thing actually exists to what you are describing is, the
>> libertarian party. They want a little bit less slavery, a little bit less
>> whipping, a little more food for the slaves, change the system from within,
>> incrementally, but never the total end of master-slave relationship.
>>
>> See how successful that approach is (or rather it is not) in any country.
>>
>> Your delusion is: "If an Anarchist was a King, everything would be
>> better".
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0HtWSlFCAQ
>>
>> On Sun, Jun 26, 2016 at 5:19 AM, Amir <amir@???> wrote:
>>
>>> Some anarchists reject electoral politics but that's a mistake. Whether
>>> we use it or not, it exists all the same.
>>>
>>> The same argument about law exists- should we participate or is our use
>>> of law, an innate acceptance or form of compliance to a system we want
>>> to see replaced or destroyed.
>>>
>>> Well these things both exist, and it's a mistake not to use or engage
>>> with them. They are alternative forms of political power that we can use
>>> for furthering anarchist political objectives.
>>>
>>> But when we talk about electoral politics, what is the aim? Is it true
>>> seizing of the political arms of power, or symbolic acts - non-violent
>>> propagandas of the deed?
>>>
>>> Within a greater discourse or political plan, symbolic acts are powerful
>>> for pushing towards an objective but only so long as that political base
>>> exists which can take advantage of the shift or movement.
>>>
>>> No such thing currently exists.
>>>
>>> If instead we talk about seizing political power, it's insightful to
>>> consider the works of Murray Bookchin, especially his overview of
>>> libertarian muncipalism.
>>>
>>> As a revolutionary anarchist, I am interested in the path to political
>>> power, not personal aesthetic changes to look or feel like an anarchist.
>>> I want all of society to live under anarchism.
>>>
>>> We need to think about political power and re-think the old strategies
>>> that evidently are not working. The work of groups like Iceland's PP,
>>> Podemos, Barcelona en-Comu and HDP (Turkey) are refreshing. What's
>>> interesting is that HDP are also following the political programme of
>>> Bookchin's libertarian municipalism.
>>>
>>> This anarchist idea of rejecting the system. Of removing ourselves from
>>> the mechanisms of power, is simply an isolation of anarchist politics
>>> from civilization. For anarchists to seize power, they need to be
>>> engaging with the body politic and thinking how they can seize cities
>>> and towns under their control.
>>>
>>> It's interesting that some Anon's have decided to make a political party
>>> but it's executed poorly. Imagine instead if there was a real organized
>>> movement that aimed to get elected locally in small towns across the US,
>>> that together form a mutual federation.
>>>
>>> A really important point: electoral politics is not a substitute for
>>> real politics. Bookchin tells us that people develop politically through
>>> the struggle. Electoral politics is a tool, but should always remain
>>> subservient to the wider movement.
>>>
>>> What should this wider movement look like?
>>>
>>> Well it's clear that the west is suffering a moral and philosophical
>>> deficiency. There can be no organized political movement that
>>> realistically overturns the social conditions of our life without a
>>> serious inquiry into political philosophers like Nietzsche. And this
>>> revolutionary force would have to be disciplined and dedicate their
>>> lives to the cause.
>>>
>>> This is the only way to provide the other path to the alt-right. It's
>>> also clear that we need to steal some of their messaging and ideas and
>>> incorporate it into our own coherent ideological system.
>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>
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