On Fri, 14 Aug 2015 13:59:32 +0100
Simon Hobson <linux@???> wrote:


> > If Devuan developers write 50 simple shims to fulfill those
> > dependencies, then Devuan users can run those 10,000 apps
> > as they are, directly from the Debian repos. And when the
> > apps are updated, they will still run.
>
> As pointed out already, unless the systemd calls are not actually
> doing anything useful to the operation of the program then replacing
> each call with a "null operation" will break the program.
>
> But, IMO there is a more important philosophical reason not to do it.
>
> If it were technically possible to create all these shims that would
> "do nothing but magically still let programs work", by doing it that
> way you have "legitimised" the use of those systemd calls. As in,
> "use as many as you like, it doesn't actually matter". If Devuan can
> get to the point where the devs that are "blindly going down the
> systemd alley"* want to get on board, without these shims there is a
> clear message - fix your code or it can't be installed.

Laurent Bercot earlier brought up this exact philosophical reason not
to do it. You two make a good point, but I disagree with the point.

This point would be spot on if Devuan had any marketplace clout. The
trouble is, with Devuan currently having such a tiny "market share",
and Devuan having almost zero funding (compared to Red Hat, Cannonical,
SuSE), threaten an upstream with "your software won't go on Devuan" and
their response will be "so what, I'll lose 0.1% of my users". In fact,
compared to that tiny loss, Devuan will lose many more because many
user's favorite program won't run on Devuan, for philosophical reasons.

Which makes it yet harder for users to avoid systemd, creating more
systemd usership, shrinking our "market share" even more.

Bottom line: The perfect is the enemy of the good. To the extent that
shims can defuse silly, reasonless dependencies, in situations where a
revised makefile and maybe tiny changes to the C can't do it, shims
help Devuan continue to promote life without systemd, and hasten the
day when *everybody* will realize King Lennart has no clothes.


SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2015 featured book: Troubleshooting: Just the Facts
http://www.troubleshooters.com/tjust