There are some very smart people all over this list, and I would
greatly appreciate seeing your remarks posted here:

https://bytecointalk.org/showthread.php?tid=82

Note you can register to post in the thread with e-mail or also
authenticate via twitter, as best ways.

I value any input you can provide as it will help refine the idea.
(It's not UBI, it's different - a method of enhancing microgiving
capacity of each person in a voluntary context - but it has involved
rethinking of what the transaction is about and how we engage with
systems we are used to.)

The stuff being talked about here has direct bearing on what I'm
working on in the bytecointalk thread (soon to be integrated into a
wallet) - details and motivation are provided there.

- -O

On 07/15/2015 07:07 PM, Javier wrote:
> I agree mostly. Only I think that it will eventually become another
> form of goverment, somewhat like what happened with the old West in
> America when it transformed itself into democracy. This goes in
> cycles I guess. Another solution is to disperse ourselves in the
> galaxy... but that requires technology we don't have now.
>
>
> El 15/07/15 a las 21:06, Penny Gaff escribió:
>>
>> Statism is the culprit, be it corporate or social. Nation states
>> is a failed ideology and accounts for a minute fraction of human
>> history....We need to decentralise, localize, reduce our energy
>> demands and adopt horizontal organization much like traditional
>> cultures that lived for millennia without destroying the
>> planet... This is the future, whether we choose to structure
>> ourselves in this way or it is a consequence of ecological
>> meltdown... either way it's inevitable. Kick the stale binary
>> paradigm of left vs right, its over and boring as fuck.
>>
>> On Jul 15, 2015 8:37 PM, "Javier" <liberman@???
>> <mailto:liberman@riseup.net>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> El 15/07/15 a las 19:52, Amir Taaki escribió:
>>> And society is not only economics, there is also society,
>>> speech and force. That's the mistake of communists.
>>
>> It is not a mistake, it is a must for them. If there is free
>> speech, their system gets down very rapidly because people are
>> free to advise others the reasons why the system doesn't work.
>> They must keep people in ignorance, that is why they don't allow
>> free speech. Society is not about economiscs only, but a liberal
>> approach in every aspect, including economic, is our natural
>> tendency. If we go against that, we invariably become much worse.
>> What politics have ever worked? The more liberal politics (not
>> only in economy) we apply, the better we become.
>>
>>>> This is called socialism. It has been tried hundreds of
>>>> times, and there are still countries that are very socialist.
>>>> In every
>> single of
>>>> them, without exception, all people become poorer. The reason
>>>> why that happens is something that is very much inside our
>>>> own
>> nature: if
>>>> somebody gets your money to give it to others, then you lose
>>>> the initiative to innovate, to create new business, and
>>>> therefore less employment is created, and everything gets in
>>>> the hands of the
>> state.
>>>> If everything gets in the hands of the state, fascism
>>>> invariably comes. The state must control prices, and must
>>>> tell YOU on what to work and how, otherwise resources
>>>> wouldn't be enough to cover the minimum necessities of
>>>> society. This is exactly what is
>> happening in
>>>> countless socialist countries like Venezuela, Russia, and
>>>> now
>> Greece.
>>> There are resources in the ground that are a very core base of
>> wealth
>>> for many countries that are taken by the government and used
>>> to
>> support
>>> a system of power and state domination. Nobody is talking
>>> about
>> stealing
>>> your money, but the earth does belong to all of us, and we
>>> have
>> every
>>> right to the oil and riches underneath our feet for our social
>>> development. It is not about stopping the innovators who
>>> develop
>> new things.
>>
>> Exploiting natural resources can only be made two ways: by
>> goverments, or by corporations. A single person or a small
>> enterprise is not able to extract petroleum, for example. A
>> goverment is inefficient and in the end always get corrupted.
>> Also, public workers are not interested in making a public
>> enterprise to make money, so they are relaxed in how they work,
>> resulting in unproductivity, if not corruption. You are talking
>> about stealing my money when you pay incredible taxes. In my
>> country, for example, a single poor employee is paying about 50%
>> of his salary in taxes. A rich man pays nearly 70%. The result
>> is outstanding: 25% of unemployment, and an incredible amount of
>> corruption at every level of society. Half of the society is
>> literally living from what the other half tries to produce. Our
>> industry is uncapable of compiting outside because producing here
>> costs twice than in USA. This is socialism....
>>
>>>
>>> Right now this wealth is taken by states and used to support
>>> the
>> state
>>> system which favours large corporations and welfare. What if
>>> we
>> did away
>>> with welfare and special favours for large corporations, and
>>> instead invested in small enterprise and social cooperatives?
>>> That would be better for society.
>>
>> The states wouldn't favour large corporations and friends if
>> there were no money we allow them to invest in those large
>> corporations. Problem is that our taxes are badly administered by
>> them to cover things that should not be covered by goverments.
>> Liberalism works because it drastically reduces the amount of
>> money that goverments can expense, so they are forced to use it
>> only for real necessities, like to paying the police, or the
>> lights in the street.
>>
>>>
>>>>> and drew the attention of people inside that work for the
>>>>> benefit of their own neighbourhoods and themselves...
>>>>> whereby people work because
>> they enjoy
>>>>> what they're doing, where it has a sense of fulfilment
>>>>> rather
>> than blind
>>>>> unethical work devoid of value simply only because it pays
>>>>> good.
>>>> This is not going to happen, ever. 90% of the works, and 90%
>>>> of your work most probably, is not
>> about what
>>>> you like, but what you must do. Who does like to clean the
>> streets? To
>>>> collect the garbage? To make repetitive work in the
>>>> factories?
>> Or even
>>>> not repetitive work but boring work in the office? This is
>>>> another reason why socialism always ends up as fascism. As
>>>> people are not paid properly but the work must be done, the
>> state must
>>>> force the people to work on unpleasant works and force not
>>>> to
>> protest
>>>> and accept "the revolution for the good of society". Just
>>>> look
>> at China,
>>>> that is exactly the problem they have. Read the book "Brave
>>>> New
>> World",
>>>> it is very similar on what socialist countries are becoming.
>>> People work for the people around them all the time. Have you
>>> never lived with a group of people, or helped your neighbours?
>>> This is how people in most of the world live. They have large
>>> extended
>> families that
>>> look after each other when they get sick, and everybody is
>> looking out
>>> for each other, doing security, making sure their area is ok.
>> The system
>>> works because it's an old system, it's the root of how we used
>> to live
>>> before civilisation existed. We evolved as small wandering
>> tribes living
>>> off the land and hunting. There was no houses and wages.
>>
>> That hasn't got anything to do with what we were talking. People
>> take care of each other and that does work. But in the very
>> moment that you force anyone to take care of somebody that they
>> don't know, things become much worse. Would you like to take care
>> of a criminal that you don't know in your own house? Socialism is
>> about taking care of people that mostly don't deserve to take
>> care of. Corrupt people or ignorant people that only cares to
>> receive their free beer. Your intentions were right, to make
>> society more equal, but what you get is yourself getting drained
>> off the money you hardly earned with your work, so corrupt or
>> lazy people can live without working. This makes you and the life
>> of the lazies worse. It makes your one bad because most of what
>> you earn is taken. It makes the life of the lazy worse because
>> they don't learn to have responsibility. It makes the life of the
>> entire society worse because you take the efforts of the people
>> that deserve to have resources and waste them giving them to the
>> corrupts or the lazies, without your permission. Tell me, if you
>> where given $1000 a month for not working during 2 years, would
>> you take it instead of working? And, if you can work but without
>> declaring it, so you can have double your salary at the cost of
>> the work of the good people that are not corrupt? That is exactly
>> what is happening in my country, and that is exactly what IS
>> socialism. Public money in the hands of politics, almost always
>> gets corrupted. That is why politics should get the less money
>> possible. That is why, at the end, only liberalism works. And, I
>> must tell you, liberal and anarchist people are very very happy
>> about Bitcoin, it means freedom from our goverments.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>> for me this is the root of the problem in this world. and
>>>>> talk of welfare and economics doesn't encompass everything
>>>>> properly.
>>>> It does. The best and not so bad economic theory that has
>>>> been
>> always
>>>> worked is liberalism. We are at the point we are and not in
>>>> the
>> middle
>>>> age because of liberalism. Liberalism is also democracy.
>>>> Socialism cannot be democracy for many years because people
>>>> always wake
>> up and
>>>> realise about the lies and populism, so they always
>>>> eventually
>> end up as
>>>> dictatorships, look at Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, China, North
>> Korea....
>>> Liberalism and socialism are dead state ideologies. They are
>> forms of
>>> slavery and systems of control.
>>
>> Not liberalism. Socialism is, and you may be scared to know how
>> much socialist we have become. "Brave new world" is nearly here.
>>
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