El 15/07/15 a las 19:52, Amir Taaki escribió:
> And society is not only economics, there is also society, speech and
> force. That's the mistake of communists.

It is not a mistake, it is a must for them. If there is free speech,
their system gets down very rapidly because people are free to advise
others the reasons why the system doesn't work. They must keep people in
ignorance, that is why they don't allow free speech.
Society is not about economiscs only, but a liberal approach in every
aspect, including economic, is our natural tendency. If we go against
that, we invariably become much worse. What politics have ever worked?
The more liberal politics (not only in economy) we apply, the better we
become.

>> This is called socialism. It has been tried hundreds of times, and
>> there are still countries that are very socialist. In every single of
>> them, without exception, all people become poorer. The reason why
>> that happens is something that is very much inside our own nature: if
>> somebody gets your money to give it to others, then you lose the
>> initiative to innovate, to create new business, and therefore less
>> employment is created, and everything gets in the hands of the state.
>> If everything gets in the hands of the state, fascism invariably
>> comes. The state must control prices, and must tell YOU on what to
>> work and how, otherwise resources wouldn't be enough to cover the
>> minimum necessities of society. This is exactly what is happening in
>> countless socialist countries like Venezuela, Russia, and now Greece.
> There are resources in the ground that are a very core base of wealth
> for many countries that are taken by the government and used to support
> a system of power and state domination. Nobody is talking about stealing
> your money, but the earth does belong to all of us, and we have every
> right to the oil and riches underneath our feet for our social
> development. It is not about stopping the innovators who develop new things.

Exploiting natural resources can only be made two ways: by goverments,
or by corporations. A single person or a small enterprise is not able to
extract petroleum, for example. A goverment is inefficient and in the
end always get corrupted. Also, public workers are not interested in
making a public enterprise to make money, so they are relaxed in how
they work, resulting in unproductivity, if not corruption.
You are talking about stealing my money when you pay incredible taxes.
In my country, for example, a single poor employee is paying about 50%
of his salary in taxes. A rich man pays nearly 70%. The result is
outstanding: 25% of unemployment, and an incredible amount of corruption
at every level of society. Half of the society is literally living from
what the other half tries to produce. Our industry is uncapable of
compiting outside because producing here costs twice than in USA. This
is socialism....

>
> Right now this wealth is taken by states and used to support the state
> system which favours large corporations and welfare. What if we did away
> with welfare and special favours for large corporations, and instead
> invested in small enterprise and social cooperatives? That would be
> better for society.

The states wouldn't favour large corporations and friends if there were
no money we allow them to invest in those large corporations. Problem is
that our taxes are badly administered by them to cover things that
should not be covered by goverments.
Liberalism works because it drastically reduces the amount of money that
goverments can expense, so they are forced to use it only for real
necessities, like to paying the police, or the lights in the street.

>
>>> and drew the
>>> attention of people inside that work for the benefit of their own
>>> neighbourhoods and themselves... whereby people work because they enjoy
>>> what they're doing, where it has a sense of fulfilment rather than blind
>>> unethical work devoid of value simply only because it pays good.
>> This is not going to happen, ever.
>> 90% of the works, and 90% of your work most probably, is not about what
>> you like, but what you must do. Who does like to clean the streets? To
>> collect the garbage? To make repetitive work in the factories? Or even
>> not repetitive work but boring work in the office?
>> This is another reason why socialism always ends up as fascism. As
>> people are not paid properly but the work must be done, the state must
>> force the people to work on unpleasant works and force not to protest
>> and accept "the revolution for the good of society". Just look at China,
>> that is exactly the problem they have. Read the book "Brave New World",
>> it is very similar on what socialist countries are becoming.
> People work for the people around them all the time. Have you never
> lived with a group of people, or helped your neighbours? This is how
> people in most of the world live. They have large extended families that
> look after each other when they get sick, and everybody is looking out
> for each other, doing security, making sure their area is ok. The system
> works because it's an old system, it's the root of how we used to live
> before civilisation existed. We evolved as small wandering tribes living
> off the land and hunting. There was no houses and wages.

That hasn't got anything to do with what we were talking.
People take care of each other and that does work. But in the very
moment that you force anyone to take care of somebody that they don't
know, things become much worse.
Would you like to take care of a criminal that you don't know in your
own house?
Socialism is about taking care of people that mostly don't deserve to
take care of. Corrupt people or ignorant people that only cares to
receive their free beer. Your intentions were right, to make society
more equal, but what you get is yourself getting drained off the money
you hardly earned with your work, so corrupt or lazy people can live
without working. This makes you and the life of the lazies worse. It
makes your one bad because most of what you earn is taken. It makes the
life of the lazy worse because they don't learn to have responsibility.
It makes the life of the entire society worse because you take the
efforts of the people that deserve to have resources and waste them
giving them to the corrupts or the lazies, without your permission.
Tell me, if you where given $1000 a month for not working during 2
years, would you take it instead of working? And, if you can work but
without declaring it, so you can have double your salary at the cost of
the work of the good people that are not corrupt? That is exactly what
is happening in my country, and that is exactly what IS socialism.
Public money in the hands of politics, almost always gets corrupted.
That is why politics should get the less money possible. That is why, at
the end, only liberalism works.
And, I must tell you, liberal and anarchist people are very very happy
about Bitcoin, it means freedom from our goverments.


>
>>> for me this is the root of the problem in this world. and talk of
>>> welfare and economics doesn't encompass everything properly.
>> It does. The best and not so bad economic theory that has been always
>> worked is liberalism. We are at the point we are and not in the middle
>> age because of liberalism. Liberalism is also democracy. Socialism
>> cannot be democracy for many years because people always wake up and
>> realise about the lies and populism, so they always eventually end up as
>> dictatorships, look at Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, China, North Korea....
> Liberalism and socialism are dead state ideologies. They are forms of
> slavery and systems of control.

Not liberalism. Socialism is, and you may be scared to know how much
socialist we have become. "Brave new world" is nearly here.