Your point of view is most interesting Javier, thank you for sharing it.
There are a couple of points which I'm not sure I fully understand and
perhaps you could help me to more clearly grasp your position.

You mention "Socialism", seemingly in response to Amir's suggestion
that we all invest in social enterprises or cooperatives that provided
their own form of welfare.

Now I'm not sure I understand what is your definition of Socialism.
I see you've mentioned a few countries including Russia, China, and Greece,
and I'm sure you know well that there is private property in all three of
these countries, and indeed you can actually own your own business - even
a shareholder corporation. North Korea seems to stand out as the only
remaining truly Socialist economy.

Now if your definitions of Socialism is really just about high taxes,
invasive government and a global feeling that people ought to be equal,
then certainly Greece might qualify, but so too would Norway - which
manages to take pole position on a number of GDP charts, something I would
need you to explain.

So I trust that I must be simply mistaken and indeed there is actually a
definition of Socialism which does encompase Russia, China, North Korea
and Greece without touching Norway because at the moment the only thing
I can see which those countries have in common is they're frequently in
the news.




On 15/07/15 14:31, Javier wrote:
>
> Hello, I don't usually participate in the list, but as someone that is
> affected by these kind of politics, I feel in the obligation of answering.
>
> El 11/07/15 a las 21:53, Amir Taaki escribió:
>> my thoughts on this are that we should first get away from the kind of
>> isolated thinking, instead understanding the totally of the system we
>> live in which possesses & manages capital for the benefit of a
>> capitalist class.
>
> I think you are wrong on this. Who is the capitalist class? There are
> not such things as capitalist and no capitalist class. We are all either
> capitalist or not.
> In the very moment there are private business ruling most of the
> economy, we are all capitalist.
>
>
>> secondly that we have to embrace the roughness, that this conveyor belt
>> system of neutrality is a pipe dream that we want to tear down.
>>
>> instead what if we wielded capital and didn't use it to support a
>> capitalist class, but instead invested into social enterprises or
>> cooperatives that provided their own form of welfare,
>
> This is called socialism.
> It has been tried hundreds of times, and there are still countries that
> are very socialist. In every single of them, without exception, all
> people become poorer.
> The reason why that happens is something that is very much inside our
> own nature: if somebody gets your money to give it to others, then you
> lose the initiative to innovate, to create new business, and therefore
> less employment is created, and everything gets in the hands of the state.
> If everything gets in the hands of the state, fascism invariably comes.
> The state must control prices, and must tell YOU on what to work and
> how, otherwise resources wouldn't be enough to cover the minimum
> necessities of society. This is exactly what is happening in countless
> socialist countries like Venezuela, Russia, and now Greece.
>
>
>
>
>> and drew the
>> attention of people inside that work for the benefit of their own
>> neighbourhoods and themselves... whereby people work because they enjoy
>> what they're doing, where it has a sense of fulfilment rather than blind
>> unethical work devoid of value simply only because it pays good.
>
> This is not going to happen, ever.
> 90% of the works, and 90% of your work most probably, is not about what
> you like, but what you must do. Who does like to clean the streets? To
> collect the garbage? To make repetitive work in the factories? Or even
> not repetitive work but boring work in the office?
> This is another reason why socialism always ends up as fascism. As
> people are not paid properly but the work must be done, the state must
> force the people to work on unpleasant works and force not to protest
> and accept "the revolution for the good of society". Just look at China,
> that is exactly the problem they have. Read the book "Brave New World",
> it is very similar on what socialist countries are becoming.
>
>>
>> for me this is the root of the problem in this world. and talk of
>> welfare and economics doesn't encompass everything properly.
>
> It does. The best and not so bad economic theory that has been always
> worked is liberalism. We are at the point we are and not in the middle
> age because of liberalism. Liberalism is also democracy. Socialism
> cannot be democracy for many years because people always wake up and
> realise about the lies and populism, so they always eventually end up as
> dictatorships, look at Cuba, Venezuela, Russia, China, North Korea....
>
>> our societies are devoid of politics, and we need to inject it heavily
>> into society like what is happening in rojava.
>
> Be careful about these not-enough weighted thoughts. They have ruined
> many many countries already.
>
>
>
>
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Satire is the escape hatch from the cycle of sorrow, hatred and violence. #JeSuisCharlie