Jaromil <jaromil@???> escribió:

> dear Noel,
>
> I'm happy that you are back, we really miss DWN, but I'm also sorry to
> contradict you on this one.

I like you contradicting me. Maybe it is not so big contradiction.
About DWN, I've had bad days in the personal (and I'm still having) so
maybe writing to the list is all I can do for now. But I'm not dead!
>
> On Tue, 05 May 2015, Noel Torres wrote:
>> As a resume: If you want a systemd-free system, Devuan is your
>> distribution, and will always be. But if you want a system designed to
>> be unable to run systemd, please leave us. This is not the place for
>> such an anti-freedom POV.
>
> perhaps we could say it was to simplify the transition, but in operating
> on packages so far we have removed systemd and the possibility to run it
> on Devuan, which is now as far as that of running sysvinit on Debian for
> normal users. This is more of a consequence of how Debian imposed
> systemd than a deliberate choice from our side. I personally agree with
> your line about init-freedom, but less agree with the line of telling
> people this is not their place especially if they look for a
> systemd-free system for whatever reason they have.

I agree on your view of the situation and the causes that lead to it,
but still think that freedom whould be what leads us. If we must pay
the price to being unable to support systemd, that's ok, because it is
teh price for the bigger Good of user freedom, but forbidding our
users to have such an option as a principle is a completely different
thing.
>
> At the inception of Devuan we have analysed the tradeoff of keeping
> systemd optional and thought it was too much work in a direction we
> weren't interested: we recommend Debian as the system of choice for
> those wanting to have systemd crippl*cough*cough*manage their computers.

I agree, but that still does not invalidate my main point! This is an
issue on feasability, not on principles.
>
> As simple as this, the result is that there is no option to have systemd
> in Devuan now and the simpliest way to have it would be anyway to use
> Debian. I'm not sure it will be ever a priority to get systemd back as

Having it is not a priority for me, either. But the philosophical
point of rejecting it by itself and thus consciously removing freedom
from our users for no good technical/workforce/feasability reason is
an idea I'm not comfortable with.

> optional for Devuan. Perhaps init-freedom is really realized by a
> plurality of distributions and if there is a merit for Devan is still
> that of preserving this freedom by providing an OS that is open to every
> init system *but systemd* since the latter does exclude anyone else by
> an enormous network of dependencies. In the future we'll invest efforts

Maybe I'm a dreamer, but I follow Lennon on this. I Imagine a world
where systemd is optional (probably against its own core developers
wishes), and can be installed or deinstalled as any other init system.

> in supporting sysvinit and more init systems our there (OpenRC, DMD
> etc.) thus we'll be a bit more "universal" than Debian.

We will be, soon!
>
> Again personally I think that is an arrogant move today for any OS to
> declare itself "universal" as init-freedom and more freedom in the
> future is really realized by a plurality of distributions, a lesson we
> learn from this fork perhaps.
>

Wise words

> ciao

Saludos

Noel
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