> That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to,
> when all the bullfeathers are removed, reaping zombies. Zombies were an
> irritation to all of us, but we've lived with them for 15 years, and
> their removal certainly doesn't justify a software V'ger.

there is a bit more to cgroups than that but there is no reason another
init manager can't perform the same task without becoming The Blob.

--Gravis

On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Steve Litt <slitt@???>
wrote:

> [Sorry Gravis, I could find no shorter way to say this]
>
>
> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:49:34 -0600
> "T.J. Duchene" <t.j.duchene@???> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 2015-02-25 at 13:11 -0800, Go Linux wrote:
> > > This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over
> > > on FDN. Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy!
> > >
> > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371
> > >
> > > golinux
> > >
> > I must respectfully disagree. I find the analysis to be very biased
> > toward one side of the discussion,
>
> And the author tells us that. Now I'd like you to admit that you're
> very biased toward the other side of the discussion. I'm proud to say
> that I'm biased in the same direction as the author. So is the vast
> majority of this mailing list, whose project was created in order to
> choose one's init system without trashing the entire OS.
>
> > as well as creating their own
> > definitions to fit their side.
> >
> > If something replaces init, it is by definition "an init system".
>
> So then, if I replace your car's radio by replacing the whole car, it
> is by definition a "car radio"?
>
> > Whether it does more or less than the previous init is immaterial to
> > that simple fact.
>
> I find no credible element of truth in the preceding sentence. But
> anyway, disregarding the definition of "init system", the author is
> dead bang right on:
>
> * Debian isn't other distros
> * no one—has ever articulated a value proposition for systemd that
> adequately addresses its implementation costs.
>
> About "Debian isn't other distros", he characterized the situation
> exactly right, plus the fact that when Debian moved, all the Debian
> descendents moved with it (except a couple that were born to exclude
> systemd, like DNG). And, his assertion was even more right back in
> September, when many of the brains behind DNG were helping out with
> Debian.
>
> About value proposition vs cost: 90% of the value ennunciated by
> systemd fans boil down to "it boots faster", because any benefit
> achieved by socket activation and the like could be simulated by
> strategically placed sleep statements in any other init. And keep in
> mind that if boot speed and reliability are truly important to one, one
> would be unlikely to start the number and type of services that would
> be problematic to boot speed. AND, although I've gotten systemd to boot
> in 4 seconds on a spinning platter, it took 30 seconds after that to
> get into the Desktop Environment, because a lot of boot tasks including
> networking happened in the desktop environment. AND, I got Epoch to
> boot in 7 seconds, and runit to boot in 11 seconds, on the same
> hardware, and they both took less time to get to the GUI.
>
> The other 8% have to do with making the GUI responsive to changes in
> the system, and vice versa. Nice, but not essential, and not worth a 15
> major component monolith tied together with thick, not well documented
> interfaces. Not only that, but there are plenty of other ways to get
> that feature without gumming up the system by eliminating advantages of
> interchangeable parts.
>
> That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to,
> when all the bullfeathers are removed, reaping zombies. Zombies were an
> irritation to all of us, but we've lived with them for 15 years, and
> their removal certainly doesn't justify a software V'ger.
>
> SteveT
>

> Steve Litt                *  http://www.troubleshooters.com/
> Troubleshooting Training  *  Human Performance

>
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