Oh, look somebody dares criticize gnome and Vitters calls it "hate" right
off the bat, my how grown up.
Some people just can't take criticism I guess.
On Dec 5, 2014 5:39 PM, "Tor Myklebust" <tmyklebu@???>
wrote:

> On Fri, 5 Dec 2014, Olav Vitters wrote:
>
> On Fri, Dec 05, 2014 at 02:54:09PM +0200, Vlad wrote:
>>
>>> I would propose that we do not waste any time with GDM, GNOME or
>>> anything else that has sprung out of that irresponsible organizations
>>> other than gtk.
>>>
>>
>> There's so much hate going on in within Devuan, it is rather ridiculous.
>> This is a public mailing list!
>>
>
> I'm not affiliated with Devuan in any way, but it's not clear to me that
> the views on this list are in any way endorsed by the folks doing the
> actual work. But it would certainly be nice if a little bit less
> childishness issued forth from, well, a lot of people.
>
> To nobody in specific: If there are needs with concrete technical
>> solutions and a willingness to commit, feel free to have a discussion
>> with either release-team@??? or on desktop-devel-list@???.
>>
>
> I don't mean to dress anybody in specific down here, but there seems to be
> considerable political will behind introducing and *not later breaking* the
> dependency on systemd-logind. The history here speaks for itself; several
> major distributions have already switched from a traditional init to
> systemd, entailing changes to everything from startup scripts to tmux to
> anything at all using the cgroup interface directly, in order to support
> GNOME.
>
> You can also choose to continue with hate, assuming the worst from
>> anyone and assume it's just a case of packaging things differently while
>> demand work to "happen".
>>
>
> You're ascribing the words of a vocal few to the project as a whole. Then
> you're making a likely-false assumption about their beliefs. (Yes, I know
> that systemd solves real problems relating to isolation of user sessions
> and daemon processes and that some of that is important to you guys. That's
> not a great reason for GNOME's requirements to impose on systems that do
> not run GNOME.)
>
> Devuan is very young so there's a lot of leeway. Concretely: this is an
>> open email that GNOME is totally ok with technical discussions. I do
>> assume it'll be with people who did a proper analysis and without the
>> hate.
>>
>> Note: Willingness to commit I mean that if there's work to be done, the
>> proposer ensures it'll get done plus takes responsibility for
>> maintenance.
>>
>
> This is a political problem, though, and it's on your end. I think you
> know the story. You guys introduced a dependency on systemd. You guys
> made it mandatory. And since systemd's documentation isn't that great and
> it's at least a little bit of a moving target, your dependency forced a lot
> of distributions to either engage in a considerable amount of extra
> maintenance work or drop support for other init systems. So they dropped
> support for other init systems.
>
> Your decision to depend on systemd affected, as described above, a whole
> bunch of users who don't even use GNOME or X11 or any of that other stuff.
> That's why people are up in arms, and that's why you see people ranting,
> sometimes childishly, about GNOME and systemd. That's why this discussion
> is so politically charged---because it is at its very core political. And
> that's why I don't think coming hat-in-hand, as you've done, looking for
> help with GNOME is going to be interpreted as anything better than
> racketeering by quite a lot of people.
>
> What's a technical discussion going to solve here? A technical discussion
> would necessarily centre around hacks and workarounds for the symptoms of
> the underlying political problem.
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