Hi, Matteo

Olav Vitters is actually the GNOME team's chief apologist, I have actually
seen him in quite a few discussions where GNOME's various deficiencies and
the bad practices of their team were mentioned.
I also believe that we should find alternatives to software that is
overly-dependant on systemd in the short to mid-term.
In the long run we might fork or provide our own implementation of systemd
components, however I personally think that is the wrong approach.
On Dec 5, 2014 4:45 PM, "Matteo Panella" <m.panella@???> wrote:

> Hi Olav,
>
> seeing a core member of the GNOME team posting here is quite a surprise :-)
>
> I'm writing to both your private address and the list because I don't
> know whether you just did a one-shot post or are actually subscribed.
>
> Forgive me if you get a dupe or I mess up your procmail/Sieve filters.
>
> And, as usual, I'm just a contributor: whatever I write here is my POV
> and it might be overridden at any moment by the people in charge ;-)
>
> On 05/12/2014 14:35, Olav Vitters wrote:
> > There's so much hate going on in within Devuan, it is rather ridiculous.
> > This is a public mailing list!
>
> As people (myself included) already stated, we should try to stick to
> technical arguments. This does not prevent people from coming here and
> posting mails which basically amount to rants without technical merit.
>
> (and no, I don't think that preventive moderation is an acceptable
> solution - it reeks too much of a walled-garden for my liking, IMVHO).
>
> > To nobody in specific: If there are needs with concrete technical
> > solutions and a willingness to commit, feel free to have a discussion
> > with either release-team@??? or on desktop-devel-list@???.
>
> That will happen in due time. As you might have guessed, the current
> focus is neither GDM/GNOME nor the average "desktop use case". Most of
> us are concerned about our own servers (especially those who have issues
> integrating systemd in their current software stack), so the current
> priorities of the project are a bit far from the X11 land.
>
> I concur that it's difficult to understand *what* those priorities are
> since most of the real work right now happens mostly off-the-record on
> IRC (aside from commits on git), perhaps Jaromil or Franco (or someone
> else entirely) should set them down in a public post :-)
>
> > You can also choose to continue with hate, assuming the worst from
> > anyone and assume it's just a case of packaging things differently while
> > demand work to "happen".
>
> Absolutely not. We don't demand things to "happen": we wouldn't be here
> taking _a lot_ of flak from all directions[1] if we believed in that[2].
>
> > Devuan is very young so there's a lot of leeway. Concretely: this is an
> > open email that GNOME is totally ok with technical discussions. I do
> > assume it'll be with people who did a proper analysis and without the
> > hate.
>
> I'm extremely glad that you're willing to listen to technical arguments
> and don't shun the project on the premise that it's working on keeping
> systemd optional. That's *very* good news :-)
>
> More to the point: some of us on IRC performed a technical analysis of
> gdm3 and what would be required to support it on non-systemd systems,
> but that was just some "scouting" work. The current development work is
> still very far from hitting GNOME, so there isn't a clear policy on that
> yet.
>
> Also, it would be premature to get in touch with you without even having
> a proof-of-concept on how GNOME could work on non-logind systems. Some
> alternatives were raised on IRC, but - again - it's still too early to
> even try hacking our way into gdm3.
>
> > Note: Willingness to commit I mean that if there's work to be done, the
> > proposer ensures it'll get done plus takes responsibility for
> > maintenance.
>
> Nobody is asking GNOME to take over support for code written by 3rd
> parties. That would be rather idiotic.
>
> But let's not discuss policy issues until we cross that bridge. What
> matters is that there is an open line of communication instead of a
> simple "meh, whatever, let them burn themselves".
>
> [1]: ironically even from people who staunchly oppose systemd, which
> believe the project position in that regard is "too soft"... oh well...
>
> [2]: or to put it in another way, if we were people "demanding" work
> from others, we would have flooded BTS _to death_ with requests for
> sysvinit support instead of doing things ourselves - that would have
> been far easier that getting caught in a flamefest and at the same time
> trying to get a distro rolling.
>
> Kind regards,
> --
> Matteo Panella
>
>
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