> On 11/29/2014 08:34 AM, Florian Lohoff wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 08:58:19PM +0000, chris wrote:
> >> Aside from fixing Debian(!) and other than being anti - systemd, it
> >> seems unclear to me what the aims and goals are for the project.
> > For me its not anti-systemd - but pro-choice.
> >
> > I want to have the ability to install a Debian without touching
> > systemd. You cant right now. You can choose to run sysvinit as
> > pid1 but only by purging systemd and reinstalling sysvinit. But still
> > then you are left with a whole lot of the systemd ecosystem.
> >
> > Have a look at the rdepends of libsystemd0 and other elements
> > of the systemd ecosystem.
> Right.
>
> Or more generically: We must base our goals on principles rather than
> particular software packages we disagree with.
>

What is wrong with that? Despite what is being said, systemd is a very
bad piece of software and written by individuals who can not be trusted.
Is that cruel to say? I don't care. I only care how my systems work
and how much innovation and usage I can get out of them. Most
importantly, I expect them to behave as I demand.

What I don't want to do is to spend the last part of they life hating
systemd, DingoOS and Lennart.

> We should not hate systemd, or Lennart,

That is one opinion. Its been considered and rejected. Systemd really
is a bad piece of software that wraps itself around every aspect of the
operating system and demands conformity with its usage and design.
At the same time it bottlenecks all future development through it.

I do not want to use an operating system like that. Even if it was all
perfect in all its code and it functioned flawlessly, and if the coding
team was grander than the Wizard of Oz himself, and more benevolent than
King David, I still don't want systemd. Its goals and design are
dis-empower the user and to make the system dependent of systemd.


I'm not convinced that this group can pull this off a fork. This will
require a true fork of debian because all future development in the general
GNU/Linux infrastructure is going to have to pass through systemd as
long as systemd is at the core of the new OS. Systemd is NOT an init and
it is not designed as one.

It is an operating system wrapper in the light of svchost.exe, or maybe
it is simple not like anything ever done before.

Regardless, having all services run and controlled by a single user
space application that audits and dished out resources from the kernel
to all other applications is not how I wish my computer to function, and
is in fact the problem that needs addressing. Systemd is desinged to
reduce the degrees of freedom a user and developer has. Freedom of Init
Usage is pretty lame and without value. It is likely undoable.

The GNU/Linux needs to return to a simple init system that just is confined
to initialization services and to keep its paws off users and their
applications. If I kill httpd I expect to to die and stay dead.

systemd has crossed two lines.

First, it is not an init system... It is a OS Kernel wrapper. I have
coined the term "Dingo OS" because it is not GNU and it is only Linux in
that it used the Linux Kernel.

Secondly, it has gone from enabling and empowering users to hindering
them and caging them.

If you would like help in forking off of systemd and creating a
GNU/Linux branch that is not depending on either systemd or its
development team, I would be willing to help. Actually, I don't care
if it is a debian fork or an arch fork or even a suse fork....as long as
it forks.

I doubt that any other venture can succeed, aside from a complete fork.
Honestly, the Manjaro group has a good first step forward. You are not
likely going to be able to support Debian packages for a forked disto
without systemd. GNU/Linux and DingoOS are fundamentally incompatible
software designs, moving forward. Or maybe GNU/Linux is dead?

This will not be like Umbuntu, if that is what you have in mind.

Ruben



> but the way it has been handled
> in hijacking the system we knew and loved. And I think we can learn some
> things from systemd too, but we would have to create something
> consistent with the unix philosophy and common sense before we can use
> it, not because it is impossible to do it otherwise, but because it
> would be inefficient and dangerous.
>

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