On 28/11/2014 14:08, Miles Fidelman wrote:
> Except that most mail clients (and my that, I include Thunderbird,
> SeaMonkey, mac email, MS Outlook) don't have a "reply to list function,"

There is "Reply to list" in Thunderbird, I just hit that to compose this
reply. Perhaps you need to check the configuration of your button bar.

> It borders on a religious argument as to whether to configure a list
> manager to set reply-to: to match the original author or the list, but
> the message in question came through with reply-to: set to the bounce
> address for the list. That was just broken.

Except that there's no Reply-To: header in the message in question.
Perhaps you hit "Reply" and since From: was set to the list owner... you
get the picture.

> Sorry, but when the only public facing web page for the site is a
> manifesto, with no names attached, and a button asking for donations,
> with no name or organization attached, that kind of raises lots of
> questions and doubts about putting much effort into a project. It's
> easy to say "we are veteran systems administrators" and "some of us are
> upstream developers, some professional sysadmins" -- but the web is
> littered with sites and projects that advertise great credentials, but
> are really one guy trying to look big.

It's understandable feeling that way. The reason for being anonymous so
far has been quite simple: people involved wanted to avoid personal
attacks from the systemd camp until there was code coming out of the
pipeline.

[Edit: just got Roger's mail. I agree that putting the donation link
while still being under "curfew" (so to speak) is bad taste and reeks of
a scam. Perhaps it should be taken down for the time being. IMVHO.]

> Personally, I AM a "veteran unix administrator," who along the way built

That is both a tongue-in-cheek definition (a nod to Paul Venezia for his
"Nine traits of the veteran Unix admin", to be exact) and the truth:
people involved have built their entire careers around UNIX and Linux
and are willing to heavily invest their time in making sure that their
infrastructure does not go to pasture over a silly decision.

I'd have quite a hard time calling myself "veteran", but if we go by
Paul Venezia's definition then I'm definitely a VUA ;-)

> It's definitely time for a Debian fork, and as a user I know that I'm
> actively looking for an alternative platform, and am willing to
> contribute both time and dollars -- but not to an anonymous, unorganized
> effort, and particularly one that considers asking for information to be
> trolling.

Since we've been trolled over time for our position on systemd by fellow
sysadmins (which don't understand that the web hosting world isn't the
only place where Debian is ran on servers) and some DDs (no names, you
can grep -devel for "vocal minority.+?trolls" if you want them), most of
the people involved with the discussion are still venting _a lot_ of steam.

The tone of your message didn't help either. Perhaps instead of posting
a "cut the crap"-style message you could have raised your (valid)
concerns in a more civil matter [Edit: as Roger just did] [Double-Edit:
and Franco ack'd].

> If you're for real, please take this as a word to the wise.

Duly noted, even though I speak only for myself since I'm not (yet) part
of the project :)

Regards,
--
Matteo Panella