Amir,

We are having a celebration of Bitcoin's 5th birthday in Satoshi Forest
this weekend, but when we get done I will sit down and write out my ideas
clearer.

I think that here in America ALL of our news is fed to us by the media with
a healthy dose of fear and who is to blame. A biproduct of that is a lot of
intelligent people stop listening as soon as that overtone comes in. No
matter how accurate it is. I just think there is a way to explain the
merits of what we are doing, why it is a better model, and why they should
care without setting off anyones FUD detector.

Jason
On Nov 1, 2013 12:25 PM, "Amir Taaki" <genjix@???> wrote:

> > ok, I've been listening to the community and the questions they ask.
> so tried to arrange the info that way. still looking for improvements
> if you can give me pithy instructions.
>
> On 01/11/13 18:23, Jason King wrote:
> > Amir,
> >
> > I did, and it is beautiful.
> >
> > On Nov 1, 2013 12:17 PM, "Amir Taaki" <genjix@???
> > <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>> wrote:
> >
> > did you read the section of the darkwallet.unsystem.net
> > <http://darkwallet.unsystem.net> called we dont have to cooperate
> > with control freaks?
> >
> > On 01/11/13 18:15, Jason King wrote:
> >> I don't think anyone is advocating explaining ourselves to the
> >> legacy power structure. And I also understand that IS what the
> >> Bitcoin Foundation is currently engaged in. My point is that is
> >> ultimately only detrimental to the bitcoin foundation. It is
> >> irrelevant to anything being done here. In fact, you can
> >> probably make the argument that the futility they participate in
> >> by engageing regulators is actually keeping the spotlight off all
> >> the other work being done.
> >
> >> It doesn't have to be us vs them. It is my opinion that engaging
> >> in this manner only strengthen peoples view of the power they
> >> have. People don't rally against the irrelevant.
> >
> >> Where as just doing what needs to be done, and concentrating on
> >> spreading the work that is being done, is more beneficial and
> >> productive than pointing fingers ever could be.
> >
> >> They use fear. We don't have to.
> >
> >> Just my .02btc
> >
> >> Jason
> >
> >> On Nov 1, 2013 11:50 AM, "Cody R Wilson" <codywilson@???
> > <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>
> >> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>>
> >> wrote:
> >
> >> All,
> >
> >> I'm willing to write a longer piece for the magazine, an open
> >> letter, anything if that is what is called for. I know
> >> darkwallet.unsystem.net <http://darkwallet.unsystem.net>
> > <http://darkwallet.unsystem.net> has more
> >> direct criticism, but the message in my video toward the
> >> foundation is toward a particular way of thinking- one featuring
> >> our old friend ideology.
> >
> >> In talking about the foundation I visuals from Orson Welle's
> >> film adaption of Kafka's /The Trial/. Joseph K's chief naivete
> >> throughout his engagement with the state is his sense that he
> >> can both make a clear account of himself and his life and resolve
> >> his situation in a way that the process would understand as
> >> resolved.
> >
> >> The beautiful and terrible irony is that it is K's earnest
> >> participation that renders him a more visible subject of power.
> >> No account matters. It is the cooperation, the desire for
> >> discipline, that leads to his execution.
> >
> >> In this way I believe the video is gentle and honest in its
> >> criticism. Asking for permission from and trying to explain
> >> yourself to the legacy powers has only one end.
> >
> >
> >> On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Amir Taaki <genjix@???
> > <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>
> >> <mailto:genjix@riseup.net <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>>> wrote:
> >
> >> Vitalik, this is the story we need to get out:
> >
> >> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=322483
> >
> >> one of cooperation and mutual solidarity between competitors
> >> finding middle ground to make effective use of resources. this
> >> is the power and beauty of openness.
> >
> >>> Thank you Jason, very solid argument. I'm not in favor of
> >>> burning bridges myself; there are many great people in the
> >>> foundation (eg. Elizabeth for one, and even Jon Matonis has
> >>> publicly written
> >> articles
> >>> praising System D on numerous occasions), and we should work
> >> with them
> >>> to make the foundation better. I looked at the Dark Wallet
> >> thread inside
> >>> the foundation forums, and many people are excited about it.
> >> There is
> >>> absolutely no reason why we need to reject potential friends.
> >>>
> >>> I will consider writing an article myself over the next few
> >> days or
> >>> weeks, unless someone else wishes to take this responsibility.
> >>>
> >>> On 11/01/2013 10:37 AM, Jason King wrote:
> >>>> To The Crew,
> >>>>
> >>>> I don't get near enough time to add to the conversation
> >>>> here.
> >> That's
> >>> too bad, I am so in awe of the work that is being done here
> >> and would
> >>> love to contribute more.
> >>>> I first want to congratulate everyone on the indiegogo
> >> campaign. The
> >>> initial showing for the fundraiser is quite impressive. I have
> >> no doubt
> >>> you will exceed your financial goals on this. I donated.
> >>>>
> >>>> But I can't help but feel you are sacrificing a much larger
> >> community
> >>> impact by not having a more plain words description of the
> >> benefits of
> >>> dark wallet. The video is beautiful, well constructed, and
> >> moving. It
> >>> does exactly what it was intended to do. I was moved, I agree
> >> with it's
> >>> message...I am also /already on this mailing list. /
> >>>> / / The indiegogo campaign has 133 contributors, that is not
> >>>> a
> >> battalion,
> >>> much less an army. And my feeling is that if the contributor
> >> list was
> >>> public I would already be familiar with most of the names on
> >> the list.
> >>> People that are already, publicly, aligned with the goals
> >> stated by this
> >>> campaign. Dark Wallet and the other ideals championed by this
> >> group are
> >>> important and necessary to EVERYBODY. Even the people that
> >> don't know it
> >>> yet. And the marketing campaign, in it's current form, is not
> >> digestible
> >>> to a large part of the community.
> >>>>
> >>>> Maybe that's the plan. Maybe you are trying to weed out
> >>>> certain
> >>> classes. But that, seems at odds with the ideals expressed
> >>> here.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not saying to stop what you are doing, at all. I'm
> >>>> saying
> >> I think
> >>> there is a great force multiplier to be had by having an
> >> additional,
> >>> stripped down version of the message that focuses on just the
> >> technical
> >>> benefits of the platform as it is being proposed. The benefits
> >>> are obvious. They do not need political overtone, fear, or
> >>> anarchist galvanization to stand on their own merits.
> >>>>
> >>>> Why wouldn't you want trustless mixing?
> >>>>
> >>>> Why wouldn't you want to have alternative full wallet
> >> implementations
> >>> free of qt and bitcoind?
> >>>>
> >>>> Why wouldn't you want a more distributed group of developers
> >> working
> >>> on Bitcoin?
> >>>>
> >>>> Isn't the whole point of Bitcoin to do away with single
> >>>> point of failure?
> >>>>
> >>>> These ideas are powerful, very powerful. The work you are
> >> doing IS THE
> >>> REVOLUTION. The revolution does not need a trumpeter next to
> >> it saying,
> >>> YO DAWG THIS IS THE REVOLUTION.
> >>>>
> >>>> I propose, sometime in the next few weeks, before the
> >> campaign ends,
> >>> you run a piece entitled "Shedding Light on Dark Wallet" that
> >>> just explains all the benefits that Dark Wallet can offer, in
> >>> very
> >> plain
> >>> terms. Just a clean, well put together, article or video that
> >> explains
> >>> the offering you are building. Completely free of any other
> >> ancillary
> >>> benefit or protection this technology may offer. I think you
> >> will be
> >>> shocked at how well something like that will be received.
> >>>>
> >>>> When you have been breathing smog, oxygen needs no hype man.
> >>>>
> >>>> And you say you need work, not ideas. If you guys are
> >> interested in
> >>> putting something like that together, I would be privileged to
> >> help
> >>> create it and promote it. And I think it will probably shake a
> >> few more
> >>> talented workers out of the woodwork.
> >>>>
> >>>> At the end of the day, do we want...
> >>>>
> >>>> To say fuck the US? Or to build the tools that will protect
> >> everyone
> >>> from their grasp?
> >>>>
> >>>> To say fuck the Bitcoin Foundation? Or use them as a speed
> >> bump to
> >>> dance with regulators, while we build the infrastructure that
> >> makes the
> >>> regulators and the foundation irrelevant?
> >>>>
> >>>> To say this world is fucked? Or do the work that makes it
> >>>> better.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I realize I juxtaposed "you" and "we" a lot here. That's
> >> because I
> >>> recognize that I have really done nothing to push this forward
> >> so far,
> >>> "you" have. But I feel so close to the ideal here, it's hard
> >> to not see
> >>> myself in it. I hope you guys will forgive me grammar
> >> indiscretions. I
> >>> am in awe of you all.
> >>>>
> >>>> Thank you so much for what you do.
> >>>>
> >>>> Jason King Sean's Outpost
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Fri, Nov 1, 2013 at 8:43 AM, Tristan Winters
> >>> <tristan_winters@???
> >>> <mailto:tristan_winters@hotmail.com>
> >> <mailto:tristan_winters@hotmail.com
> > <mailto:tristan_winters@hotmail.com>>
> >> <mailto:tristan_winters@hotmail.com
> > <mailto:tristan_winters@hotmail.com>
> >> <mailto:tristan_winters@hotmail.com
> > <mailto:tristan_winters@hotmail.com>>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> They are referring to this:
> >>> http://www.forbes.com/fdc/welcome_mjx.shtml
> >>>>
> >>>> The foundation did not get 9 million dollars. But as soon as
> >>>> the above company got VC backed, they became a
> >>> "Gold Member" of the foundation.
> >>>> And the foundation got a large number of Bitcoins in that
> >> way.
> >>>>
> >>>> Anyway, this has clearly touched a nerve in the
> >> community. The
> >>> crowd-funding 24hr response shows that.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On 1 Nov 2013, at 2:25 pm, Amir Taaki <genjix@???
> > <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>
> >> <mailto:genjix@riseup.net <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>>
> >>> <mailto:genjix@riseup.net <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>
> > <mailto:genjix@riseup.net <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> this article is head in the clouds laa dee da that does
> >> not fit
> >>> the reality.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> first of all bitcoin foundation should not be involved in
> >>> development of
> >>>>> bitcoin if that are interacting with the state. that
> >> means not
> >>> paying
> >>>>> salaries to people who exert undue influence over the
> >> protocol.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if they choose to continue to be involved with bitcoin
> >>> development then
> >>>>> they should also support dark wallet, electrum, and
> >> hive (which
> >>> are now
> >>>>> combining as one project pooling our efforts).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> if they want to be involved in development, then the
> >> role should
> >>> be in
> >>>>> establishing a neutral space (which i have not seen be
> >> done and
> >>> have no
> >>>>> confidence will be done). i want to see more stick.
> >> I've seen
> >>> some cliquey
> >>>>> and sneaky behaviour coming from bitcoind devs. multiple
> >>> instances of
> >>>>> top-down commands (evoking that power when not
> >> neccessary) or
> >>> shutting
> >>>>> down debate over contentious issues.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> twice i contacted the foundation over issues where I
> >> was being
> >>> unfairly
> >>>>> placed at a disadvantage as a dev because of office
> >> politics
> >>> (being taken
> >>>>> off mailing lists .etc) but they refused to intervene.
> >> they are
> >>> paying
> >>>>> salaries of devs. I would have words if someone I was
> >> working
> >>> with was
> >>>>> acting like a cunt.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I told this to elizabeth already, and she's a force for
> >> good
> >>> working on
> >>>>> bitcoin with pure motives.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> from a journalist friend of ours. he sent me this
> >> yesterday:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Just got a call from the bitcoin foundation. They
> >> wouldn't go
> >>> on the
> >>>>>> record to comment on the article but just kept telling
> >> me "off
> >>>> the
> >>>>>> record" that you lot have no credibility and that a
> >> much better
> >>> story is
> >>>>>> some venture capitalist yesterday investing $9m in
> >> bitcoin...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> can't stop laughing. ok, where is this 9 million. what
> >> is it
> >>> doing? i
> >>>>> haven't seen any of it yet. they have all the resources,
> >>> leigitimacy and
> >>>>> attention but what have they done. they are lost in the
> >> politics.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> we have donations from many, not 1 rich fascist. how
> >> will this 9
> >>> million
> >>>>> be used. the money from the community will go far, be
> >> collectively
> >>>>> managed in a multisig and be used well. we don't waste
> >> 9 million
> >>>> on
> >>>>> lawyers giving to people part of the state apparatus.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> why don't they go on record and back up their words?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> godspeed :) today we finally forced an important issue in
> >>> bitcoin to the
> >>>>> forefront. this is where we will make our stand for
> >> freedom and
> >>>> our
> >>>>> values. great job cody for his mastermind work here.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> The video is so fucken crazy. Thank God you're a force
> >> for good.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Another time and place you could work for the propaganda
> >>> ministry of some
> >>>>>> Eastern Block country. :)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Check this out also, it's a balanced piece doing the
> >> rounds:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> http://techliberation.com/2013/10/31/bitcoin-is-going-mainstream-here-is-why-cypherpunks-shouldnt-worry/
> >
> >
> >
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On 1 Nov 2013, at 2:01 pm, Cody R Wilson
> >> <codywilson@??? <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>
> > <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>
> >>> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>
> > <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>>>
> >> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I'd like to thank everyone on this list especially
> >> for the
> >>> tremendous
> >>>>>>> response the Dark Wallet campaign received yesterday.
> >> Within
> >>> 24 hours we
> >>>>>>> received just over 25k USD in combined contributions.
> >> Share
> >>> the video if
> >>>>>>> you haven't already. It seems to be popularizing the
> >> spirit of
> >>> crypto.
> >>>>>>> There is demand!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 29, 2013 at 2:05 PM, Amir Taaki
> >> <genjix@??? <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>
> > <mailto:genjix@riseup.net <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>>
> >>> <mailto:genjix@riseup.net <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>
> > <mailto:genjix@riseup.net <mailto:genjix@riseup.net>>>> wrote:
> >>>> Hi!
> >>>>
> >>>> We're doing a crowd funding campaign for DarkWallet soon.
> >>>> I'm
> >> looking
> >>>> for any material (especially from people here) that we can
> >> weave into
> >>>> a tapestry of our vision and ideals.
> >>>>
> >>>> How we are thinking, what we are working towards, what
> >> interests us, ...
> >>>>
> >>>> Articles, videos, images, forum posts, ... anything. We want
> >>>> to present something to the people
> >>>>
> >>>> * It's not only about the 'black market' but tools for the
> >> people, the
> >>>> limitations and the monopoly of money / economy. * Tools
> >>>> like DarkWallet are your own financial system, a free
> >> financial
> >>>> system. * It's important to talk about independence and
> >>>> community
> >> (organising
> >>>> together). * Everything from petrol, food, computers, even
> >>>> our health is manipulated. * Finance is one aspect, but we
> >>>> need to take back control of more things. * Silk Road: $1.2
> >>>> billion market, 2 murders, >2 years. DPR is
> >> a hero.
> >>>> Compare that with something like producing rice and all the
> >> people
> >>>> that die. * More simply: ** Bitcoin = amazing scifi. The
> >>>> blockchain is incredible. ** No technical limitations. The
> >>>> limitations are human
> >> limitations.
> >>>> ** We will have all the tools, but we need the community. *
> >>>> Bitcoin Foundation has a lot of money, all the legitimacy
> >> but they do
> >>>> nothing. They are lost in the politics, but aren't thinking
> >> of serving
> >>>> the people. * We are here now working with the future in
> >>>> mind. These
> >> things take
> >>>> time and are slow. Maybe 5 years from now all these crazy
> >> concepts
> >>>> become reality. ** Bitcoin is still young. ** It's also
> >>>> about the internet. ** Bitcoin is something new but
> >>>> immensely powerful.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>>>
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> -- Sincerely,
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Cody R. Wilson codywilson@???
> > <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>
> >>>>>>> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu
> >>>>>>> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>
> >> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>
> > <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> The University of Texas School of Law Class of 2014
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>>>
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM
> >>>>>> mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>>
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM
> >>>>> mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM
> >>>> mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM
> >>>> mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM
> >>> mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>
> >
> >>>
> >> _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM mailing
> >> list: http://unsystem.net
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> -- Sincerely,
> >
> >> Cody R. Wilson codywilson@???
> >> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu
> >> <mailto:codywilson@utexas.edu>>
> >
> >> The University of Texas School of Law Class of 2014
> >
> >> _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM mailing
> >> list: http://unsystem.net
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >
> >
> >
> >> _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM mailing
> >> list: http://unsystem.net
> >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM mailing
> > list: http://unsystem.net
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________ unSYSTEM mailing
> > list: http://unsystem.net
> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >
>
> - --
> Abolish the NSA
> > _______________________________________________
> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>