Hi Steve,



I have to differ re TECO. When I first came to IBM PCs I had an editor called PMATE by Phoenix Technologies (the BIOS people, before they got into BIOSes, as PMATE dates from the time when MS DOS was a hardware independent OS in the vein of CP/M). And PMATE was originally MATE (Michael Arunsen's Text Editor for 8080 CP/M) and then ZMATE (Z80 version which was basically the same but used Z80 string instructions for bulk data movement). It is a TECO clone. Myself and the other guys that I worked with did some amazing stuff with PMATE. For instance one guy created a calendar using PMATE macros feeding into a typesetting program called Fontasy (kind of PC version of troff) and printed them for everyone on his dot matrix printer as Chrismas presents. The following year he had upgraded his PMATE macros to create a diary with one week per page and a "quote of the week" selected from a database. Cool.



When I moved to linux I really missed PMATE. I made various efforts to port it, with some success, but in the process I learned vi and eventually the PMATE effort fell by the wayside. Much as I dislike vi, I like the fact that it is ubiquitous. I refuse on principle to read the manual or invest any effort into learning it in preference to a better editor, so my vi editing uses lots of weird sequences that I more or less discovered by accident. I guess I will never be an emacs person...



As part of my efforts I eventually discovered PMATE is a TECO clone (this was not at all obvious even though it occasionally appears on lists of TECO implementations). So I tried several unix/linux TECO implementations. Unfortunately I could not get my head around these due to the very confusing way that the console and the instant commands work in real TECO, basically rough edges becuase TECO was originally a line editor in the same way as vi is a graphical shell around ex. Coupled with the differences in the Q and X command sets between PMATE and TECO I never felt comfortable in real TECO. But the scripting language which you say is dangerous, is perfect for small editing tasks. It is a terse write-only language specialized for editing text and lets you quickly perform complex repetitive tasks.



Kind regards,

Nick








>
> On 12 Nov 2024 at 11:26 am, dng-request <dng-request@???> wrote:
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> 1. Re: Fwd: Waaay OT: EVs 'n Solar 'n Tractors [Was: Re: another
> programming language question (Steve Litt)
> 2. Re: Fwd: Waaay OT: EVs 'n Solar 'n Tractors [Was: Re: another
> programming language question (tito)
> 3. Re: Fwd: Waaay OT: EVs 'n Solar 'n Tractors [Was: Re: another
> programming language question (o1bigtenor)
> 4. Re: Fwd: Waaay OT: EVs 'n Solar 'n Tractors [Was: Re: another
> programming language question (o1bigtenor)
> 5. Re: Computer language discussions are always on topic at
> GoLUG (onefang)
> 6. Re: Computer language discussions are always on topic at
> GoLUG (Steve Litt)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 16:24:16 -0500
> From: Steve Litt <slitt@???>
> To: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Fwd: Waaay OT: EVs 'n Solar 'n Tractors [Was: Re:
> another programming language question
> Message-ID: <20241111162416.6ba088a3@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> marc said on Mon, 11 Nov 2024 20:09:36 +0100
>
> >And sodium is about to replace lithium too.
>
> Stevie don't play that. Slightly cracked battery, heavy rain wets
> sodium, and sodium burns furiously.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
>
> http://444domains.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 23:01:43 +0100
> From: tito <farmatito@???>
> To: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Fwd: Waaay OT: EVs 'n Solar 'n Tractors [Was: Re:
> another programming language question
> Message-ID: <20241111230143.3b47b260@devuan>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Mon, 11 Nov 2024 21:57:35 +0100
> marc <marcxdv@???> wrote:
>
> > Hello
> >
> > > > Remember: The citizens of developed democracies are typically
> > > > victims of much more sophisticated propaganda than those
> > > > living under dictatorships. The propaganda of dictatorships
> > > > can be crude as the citizens there don't get to vote.
> > > > Democracies need to distract their citizens, to make elections
> > > > a pointless spectacle and a sideshow. Don't be a victim.
> > >
> > > The question arise spontaneously, are you
> > > part of this much more sophisticated propaganda?
> >
> > I totally accept that my claims can come across as
> > wild-eyed, possibly even crackpot.
> >
> > But do look into it some more. My reply was to
> > o1bigtenor who cited the IEA on its assessment
> > on lithium reserves. The International Energy Agency:
> > That sounds like an august organisation full of the
> > world's best experts dispensing wise policy advice.
> >
> > They should know their stuff, right ? Our intuition
> > would rate them as trustworthy, not so ?
> >
> > Well, let's see how their predictions on solar have
> > been working out:
> >
> > https://www.pv-magazine.com/2018/11/20/iea-versus-solar-pv-reality/
> >
> > What conclusion would you draw from that ?
> >
> > regards
> >
> > marc
> Hi,
>
> To be honest I'm not in the position to draw any conclusion,
> but one thing life thought me is to be wary of people that think
> that they are smart and all others are idiots:
>
> "The citizens of developed democracies are typically
> victims of much more sophisticated propaganda"
>
> Translated I read: You, that would be me, as citizen of a
> developed democracy, are an idiot and easy prey
> of this much more sophisticated propaganda,
> meanwhile, I, that would be you, am smart
> and fully discern the real truth.
>
> If you think about this you maybe agree with me
> that this is not the best start for a fruitful discussion
> of your ideas.
>
> You should better avoid these word blobs and just
> explain your view as otherwise they show that you
> are also victim of some propaganda, just a different one.
>
> Ciao,
> Tito
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 16:27:51 -0600
> From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@???>
> To: marc <marcxdv@???>
> Cc: Devuan ML <dng@???>
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Fwd: Waaay OT: EVs 'n Solar 'n Tractors [Was: Re:
> another programming language question
> Message-ID:
> <CAPpdf5-ny4E8Nb2q2o_vo4t90fBTK4wZT7xPaT=QzuetnkPJ6g@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 1:09?PM marc <marcxdv@???> wrote:
> >
> > Hello
> >
> > > You might be quite surprised as not only is the lithium tough to
> > > source the cobalt is worse and both are very important at the
> > > moment for contemporary Li-ion battery manufacture.
> >
> > Ooh, I can't go to bed. Somebody on the internet is wrong :)
> >
> > Lithium is actually quite common. See the "Occurrence"
> > section at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium
> >
> > "as common as chlorine in the earth's crust" is the TL;DR
>
> A pity you didn't read a bit further.
>
> You bet its common - - - - in at most double digits parts per million.
> Do you actually understand what that means - - - - that means
> that its all over and getting it in useful quantities is a royal pita.
> But then a wikipedia article is always the only place to check for
> information!
> >
> > As for cobalt. LiFePo batteries replace the cobalt with
> > iron - the "Fe" stands for iron. So that problem is solved.
> > Done. Dusted. And sodium is about to replace lithium too.
>
> Please indicate the presently produced in volume today of
> batteries with your list chemistry - - - - oh I forgot you're
> including the university labs where they make them one at a time
> with multiple PhDs doing the work - - - - got it. I'm only reading the
> literature from the battery companies and the EV touts most of
> which is hugely optimistic.
> >
> > But even if the propaganda is out of date, there
> > is a teachable moment here. Notice how we are told that
> > cobalt is a conflict mineral. Perhaps. But also note how
> > nobody talks about "conflict gasoline" which is a
> > way bigger problem. Do you ask your friends if they
> > their gasoline purchase is funding a dictatorship
> > or war somewhere ? Odds are it does.
>
> Well - - - I'm quite sure my fuel purchases are only funding some
> serious fat cats that run the raw material and refining operations
> within some 1500 miles (2500 km) of me. And yes I've worked
> in some of those plants so its not hearsay.
> >
> > The flow of oil in the world is a major geopolitical
> > lever. A quarter of world shipping is petroleum and
> > its products. Established powers use this as a means to
> > dominate lesser ones. China, for all its flaws, has figured this
> > out and is solving it by moving to solar and EVs.
>
> Hmmm - - - is that why they're still buying coal for their iron
> operations by the train load?
> >
> > This shift will favour the developing world. Not only
> > are they the ones being dominated, rather than doing the
> > dominating, they also tend to be closer to the equator
> > where winters are minor, and batteries only need to last
> > the night rather than a long, dark winter.
>
> An EV is a serious liability in extreme cold conditions as
> was found last winter in Alberta last winter.
> >
> > When you read the news that EV sales are sluggish
> > and then a month later that EV tariffs are going up
> > then what your are witnessing is a disinformation effort
> > very similar to the one that had us believe that smoking
> > does not cause cancer or that climate change is a mean
> > hoax by dorky scientists.
>
> No - - - what I see is a small number of fat cats ripping off the
> rest of us some more - - - its not just about disinformation - - -
> its about $$$$$$$$$$.
> >
> > Remember: The citizens of developed democracies are typically
> > victims of much more sophisticated propaganda than those
> > living under dictatorships. The propaganda of dictatorships
> > can be crude as the citizens there don't get to vote.
> > Democracies need to distract their citizens, to make elections
> > a pointless spectacle and a sideshow. Don't be a victim.
> >
> How's that working out for you?
>
> Regards
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 16:31:46 -0600
> From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@???>
> To: marc <marcxdv@???>
> Cc: Devuan ML <dng@???>
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Fwd: Waaay OT: EVs 'n Solar 'n Tractors [Was: Re:
> another programming language question
> Message-ID:
> <CAPpdf59-gNi=5jPVQyKfr0UaqRoAVt4vNSenHeSMzzN_ENs48A@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
>
> On Mon, Nov 11, 2024 at 2:57?PM marc <marcxdv@???> wrote:
> >
> > Hello
> >
> > > > Remember: The citizens of developed democracies are typically
> > > > victims of much more sophisticated propaganda than those
> > > > living under dictatorships. The propaganda of dictatorships
> > > > can be crude as the citizens there don't get to vote.
> > > > Democracies need to distract their citizens, to make elections
> > > > a pointless spectacle and a sideshow. Don't be a victim.
> > >
> > > The question arise spontaneously, are you
> > > part of this much more sophisticated propaganda?
> >
> > I totally accept that my claims can come across as
> > wild-eyed, possibly even crackpot.
> >
> > But do look into it some more. My reply was to
> > o1bigtenor who cited the IEA on its assessment
> > on lithium reserves. The International Energy Agency:
> > That sounds like an august organisation full of the
> > world's best experts dispensing wise policy advice.
> >
> > They should know their stuff, right ? Our intuition
> > would rate them as trustworthy, not so ?
> >
> > Well, let's see how their predictions on solar have
> > been working out:
> >
> > https://www.pv-magazine.com/2018/11/20/iea-versus-solar-pv-reality/
> >
> > What conclusion would you draw from that ?
> >
> Everyone and everybody gets a by on an occasional flub.
> Having actually read all of the report it seems to me that their stuff
> on lithium
> likely has at least a reasonable amount of validity.
> It wasn't what I was looking for but I don't have hours to dig around
> to find stuff that will likely be just shot down anyway for whatever reason.
>
> Regards
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 12 Nov 2024 09:02:25 +1000
> From: onefang <onefang_devuan@???>
> To: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Computer language discussions are always on topic
> at GoLUG
> Message-ID:
> <20241111230225.n63toaa23yi7eyjn@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On 2024-11-11 16:17:59, Steve Litt wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > GoLUG is an international online Linux User Group that has monthly
> > online meetings and has a very nice mailing list.
> >
> > Discussions of computer language are very on-topic on GoLUG's mailing
> > list, as long as the languages are achievable on Linux (in other words,
> > no Microsoft Visual Basic).
>
> Um, Debian had "Mono Visual Basic Compiler" in ASCII, that was just after
> a very quick search.
>
> A quick search is not showing up APL or TECO. I suspect most of the
> other obscure languages in my 100 would also be hard to find on Linux.
>
> --
> A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
> coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2024 19:26:12 -0500
> From: Steve Litt <slitt@???>
> To: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Computer language discussions are always on topic
> at GoLUG
> Message-ID: <20241111192612.2dc444bb@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> onefang said on Tue, 12 Nov 2024 09:02:25 +1000
>
>
> >A quick search is not showing up APL or TECO. I suspect most of the
> >other obscure languages in my 100 would also be hard to find on Linux.
>
> I know nothing about APL, but if you were to speak on TECO, I doubt
> you'd get one attendee. Most of us have seen TECO in action, and most
> of those vowed never to get near it.
>
> To those who don't know what TECO is, it's ugly and dangerous.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
>
> http://444domains.com
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
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> End of Dng Digest, Vol 122, Issue 26
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>