Hello hello....
Vanessa reaching out from Colombia. I read some of your exchanges and felt
a bit lost as I am no academic, but rather have opted for working on
education and with sustainable communities off grid in the jungle. I read
about the *Meshtastic* (off grid mesh) and wondered if it would actually
work in our community...about 10 years ago we made an attempt at installing
a mesh network in our river basin (with the help of a german exert Elektra
and also using radio) but the testing stopped quiet early as we realised it
would not work because there were too many mountains and trees
basically...I am wondering if this technology* Meshtastic* is any more
useful?
What I can offer from Colombia is good places to test out systems in places
that have functioning semi sustainable / autonomous communities where there
is little or no governmental meddling and yes a need for alternative new
technologies...like communication and energy sources.
Have beautiful days!
Vanessa
El mar, 8 oct 2024 a las 10:43, henk (<henk@???>) escribió:
> This project comes close:
>
> https://meshtastic.org/
>
> Meshtastic is a decentralized wireless off-grid mesh networking LoRa
> protocol. The main goal of the project is enabling low-power, long-range
> communication over unlicensed radio bands. It is designed around
> exchanging text
> messages and data in off-grid environments, with potential applications in
> IoT
> projects where a decentralized communication system is needed without
> existing
> infrastructure.
>
> On Tue, Oct 08, 2024 at 05:02:48PM +0200, Rob van Kranenburg wrote:
> > Hi Maya, all,
> >
> > In 2011 Christian Nold and me wrote The Internet of People for a
> Post-Oil World.
> > Downloadable here:
> > https://archleague.org/publications/situated-technologies-pamphlets-8/
> > The Internet of People for a Post-Oil World - The Architectural League
> of New York
> > archleague.org
> >
> > >>> And what might also be important to consider is where the energy and
> material resources necessary for technology come from. Because we won’t
> achieve real change if only parts of the process are transparent. Let’s at
> least be honest with ourselves and acknowledge our anarchistic
> revolutionary tendencies by asking this question. These resources as we all
> know, come from neocolonized, severely exploited countries far enough away
> that consumers are not bothered to think about them. It's getting too
> complicated.
> >
> >
> >
> > We ended with this:
> >
> > To finish and to instigate a discussion, we propose a series of
> indicative standards that test the waters, raise awareness and make visible
> the gap between where we are now and where have to go. The triple
> challenges of climate change, peak oil and social breakdown are coming. The
> question is not if, but when. Our standards are a shock therapy to the
> current practice of making. The sociability standards are workable and stem
> directly from the urgencies we have discussed. They will ensure
> interoperability between all the emerging actors. They require the joining
> of different actors that so far have not been involved in the making of
> standards. All technological standards are also social standards.
> > Proximity
> > • Systems that are designed by at least twenty people distributed across
> the world.
> > • Systems that are built less than 150 miles from where the raw
> materials are sourced.
> > • Systems that will not be deployed more than 50 miles from where they
> are built.
> > • Systems whose components are modular and backward compatible to allow
> local repair, upgrade and downgrade.
> > System Thinking
> > • Systems that fix end costs as a percentage on top of publicly
> available production, transportation and disposal costs.
> > • Systems that communicate the break down of energy costs of
> pro-dduction, transport and breakdown of the product.
> > • Systems that automatically generate a fixed, public discussion url for
> each item.
> > Affect
> > • Systems that encourage face-to-face contact.
> > • Systems that build mutual responsibility.
> > • Systems that encourage conflict.
> > • Systems that during their lifetime will be used by more than 5 people.
> > • Systems that enable strong bonds between people and the environment.
> > • Systems that treat resources as equals.
> >
> > Another part: The temporary alliance that you are describing reminds me
> of the Belgian town of Geel where inmates from the psychiatric asylum are
> living with families. This is a practice that has a 700-year history. In
> recent decades, researchers examined this living together of “sane” and
> “insane” people and found that it was an incredibly successful model for
> “community recovery” where communities strive to live with, rather than
> fear, mental illness. It created local solidarity.
> >
> > In December there is a Thingscon we will have a workshop on this (90%
> sure) to see if this is pure nostalgia or workable as working on some
> system that functions after everything else fails - without having a
> prepare attitude. Would be great to work on a joint workshop!
> >
> > Greetings, Rob
> >
> > > On 7 Oct 2024, at 20:10, Maira <ce0064@???> wrote:
> > >
> > > Welcome Maya :)
> > >
> > > Hello from Brazil
> > >
> > > Em seg., 7 de out. de 2024 às 11:43, marija nikolic <
> nikolic.a.marija@??? <mailto:nikolic.a.marija@gmail.com>> escreveu:
> > >> Sorry for the missing photo of the meme :(
> > >>
> > >> <Screenshot 2024-10-07 at 1.49.49 PM.png>
> > >>
> > >> On Mon, Oct 7, 2024 at 3:14 PM marija nikolic <
> nikolic.a.marija@??? <mailto:nikolic.a.marija@gmail.com>> wrote:
> > >>> Hello Bricolabsers,
> > >>>
> > >>> I have no idea how big the group is nor who are the members, I've
> just been invited to the group by my dear friend Rob and I'm thankful for
> that.
> > >>>
> > >>> I recalled recently this meme:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Being a sociologist by education, I found it very accurate. Of
> course, I'm not against studying science and technology; en contraire, I
> spent a long time trying to communicate its value and necessity to a wider
> audience (first to the youngest, but also to adults). I completely agree
> with Carl Sagan's statement: 'We live in a society exquisitely dependent on
> science and technology, in which hardly anyone knows anything about science
> and technology.' But this is also becoming true for other spheres of
> reality—social, political, and philosophical concepts. This is largely why
> history keeps repeating itself.
> > >>>
> > >>> It has become obvious that we have been in an ideological crisis for
> some time, that postmodernism is unraveling, and that attempts to sustain
> it through neocolonialism will likely fail—but only if advancements in ICT
> are not fully controlled by corporations.
> > >>>
> > >>> I love Christina's quote:
> > >>>
> > >>> “I am always interested in who controls technology in any given
> society at a particular time."..
> > >>>
> > >>> And what might also be important to consider is where the energy and
> material resources necessary for technology come from. Because we won’t
> achieve real change if only parts of the process are transparent. Let’s at
> least be honest with ourselves and acknowledge our anarchistic
> revolutionary tendencies by asking this question. These resources as we all
> know, come from neocolonized, severely exploited countries far enough away
> that consumers are not bothered to think about them. It's getting too
> complicated.
> > >>>
> > >>> Perhaps we can contemplate some tech degrowth strategies that align
> with our values of protecting people's freedoms (which people?! - I guess
> all around the globe), digital identities, and their right to resist and
> exist both virtually and in this heavy, yet beautiful, material reality
> worth preserving.
> > >>>
> > >>> I'm looking forward to engaging discussions and valuable resources
> in the mailing group.
> > >>>
> > >>> Best,
> > >>> Maya
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 3:52 PM Rob van Kranenburg <
> kranenbu@??? <mailto:kranenbu@xs4all.nl>> wrote:
> > >>>> Good afternoon, (I resend as I am not sure if this passed,
> apologies if you receive this twice),
> > >>>>
> > >>>> On the matter of dream projects that may become real I have been
> working for the past decade on the idea of regaining back control/agency
> over the big tech world and that is building a full European phone, running
> a EU OS and the #Eurostack.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Christina Caffara wrote:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> -The path to independence: given that we cannot Big Bang our way
> from today’s captured vertically integrated infrastructures to full
> independence, what are the steps and priorities to follow to get there?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Actually I think that there is a way and that is embedding the
> Eurostack in a European phone. We can regulate the wallet, we can also
> regulate requirements for the phone. We have excellent chips -ASML -
> excellent security PUF - and the ability to run an European Operating
> System with apps and services on search, friends, shopping... As a
> dedicated and trusted device we can also control the supply chain fully
> (re: pagers) and vouch for the validity. The device is a focus for new EU
> research. We can embed an AI layer and hardcode the AI Act, simply running
> AI that is sound and 'vetted'.
> > >>>> We can bring trillions of euros home (GAFAM is worth 7 trillion)
> because the services are in the EU cloud where analysis and feedback is
> placed. The EU cloud is the edge of 500 million phones primarily.
> > >>>> At the moment we have about 17 Acts and Directives regulating data,
> information, chip, cloud, data spaces, AI, devices (CRA)..... All of these
> are run on compliance alone (and fines) A 500 million zone must have other
> tools than fines. The Acts are missing the obvious - while it is staring in
> our face - the carrier itself! Also no rocketsciennce.
> > >>>> Such a framework would run Self Sovereign Identity and disposable
> identities (an identity for a service; for example if you rent a house you
> send a token to the landlord that you can pay, that is all he/she needs to
> know - if you do not pay the token unlocks a phone number). This secures
> privacy for people.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> We have a Telegram Group on Disposable Identities:
> > >>>> Disposable Identities
> > >>>> t.me
> > >>>> <apple-touch-icon.png>
> > >>>> <https://t.me/+T6YMHcJxH4Iy5LUa>Disposable Identities <
> https://t.me/+T6YMHcJxH4Iy5LUa>
> > >>>> t.me <https://t.me/+T6YMHcJxH4Iy5LUa> <apple-touch-icon.png> <
> https://t.me/+T6YMHcJxH4Iy5LUa>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The framework enablers new forms of decision making. We have to
> negotiate referenda and citizen input.
> > >>>> This might sound quite Chinese. In 2010 out of their twelve top
> politicians 9 were engineers and scientists. They understood that the
> hybrid - the merging of analogue and digital - is a new ontology that needs
> decision making systems tuned to the new drivers: techne - but the mindset
> is fully OCD. From a cybernetic point of view this system is quite stable
> in the short and mid term but untenable in the longer turn.
> > >>>> We can work on a more balanced system.
> > >>>> Taking control on the phone also means we can renegotiate the
> digital turn that just happened top us. We need a time out to rethink what
> kind of a hybrid world that we want. That should be a European discussion
> that we can not have in the current tech set up.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I am happy to say that my small book on this New forms of
> governance for your hybrid reality has been accepted by Springer, and I
> hope it kan kickstart a debate.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The way can conceive our phone is as a truly trusted device that
> can share moods, run our own AI and as the primary could is the edge of 500
> million phones we have an instant EU cloud.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I see it as an example of doing extreme centralisation and extreme
> decentralisation at the same time.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The Kenner
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The kenner lives in hot spots and cold spots through disposable
> identities.
> > >>>> We need governance for the hot spots and governance for the cold
> spots.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> “Uncanny is in reality nothing new or alien, but something which is
> familiar and old-established in the mind and which has become alienated
> from it only through the process of repression.” - Sigmund Freud
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "The number of people seeking NHS treatment for psychotic symptoms
> including hallucinations and delusional thinking has soared in the past two
> years, new figures show....According to NHS data, referrals to mental
> health services in England for first suspected episodes of psychosis rose
> by 75% in the two years up until April 2021, amid what The Guardian
> described as “the stresses of the Covid-19 pandemic”."[1] <>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Rates of those at risk for psychotic experiences have continued to
> increase compared with pre-pandemic rates, growing from 73% at risk in 2019
> to a staggering 80% in 2023." (US figures)[2] <>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The main premise of this text is that the democratic apparatus in
> Western countries is no longer tuned to the hybrid world that this
> seamlessness puts forward. Our current conceptual toolbox is no longer
> equipped to address new challenges: “We grasp reality through concepts.
> When reality changes too quickly and dramatically, as it is happening
> nowadays because of ICTs, we are conceptually wrong-footed.” (Gligoric et
> al., 2017) The most important characteristic of ubicomp, pervasive
> computing, ambient intelligence, and IoT is its promise of seamless
> connectivity. We perceive seamlessness in the same category as ‘harmonious’
> because it is without rupture, questions and conflict. As such it can
> appear as a smooth surface of an object, a well designed situation or
> service or a natural setting. As it sets out to disappear into the fabric
> of everyday life, it obscures the fact that infrastructural, hardware,
> software and interface design decisions were made that can not be analyzed,
> discussed and contested. It becomes next nature, the next surface on which
> to read, write, act and build on. This process underlies the main
> innovations of our time: the internet hides the fact that it created the
> notion of data with the tcp/ip protocol - it creates it -, the web hides
> the fact that although html won there were competing visions that stated
> that to link to something that potentially did not exist (Error 404) should
> not be possible and reciprocity[3] <> not linkability should drive this
> information layer, the smartphone hides the business model beneath it with
> the iphone controlling what goes in and what goes out through the app store
> and their designers and ChatGPT hides the fact what it has been trained on
> and what machine learning and AI algorithms it runs . It could have all
> been different. This is not a lament, saying things could have been better
> but a statement meant to draw attention to the fact that with the
> integration of AI we need a different approach.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> I believe that the day is not far off when all people will have
> some tool, call it a wallet, a router, a phone, a crypto mining device
> (maybe all of that) that runs all computation locally on that device and
> gives out only contextual, time-limited and scope-based information; a
> companion to assist you in educating yourself and others in living together
> on a small planet that is tumbling about in vast space. In fact, the 1976
> novel Woman on the Edge of Time by Marge Piercy, describes this tool in her
> ‘utopia’ of a society combining local bio food and resilient communities
> running on high tech renewables and distributed ledgers provisioning
> services. Maybe it was not a utopia but just a vision? She calls the device
> a kenner. I want to bring her vision alive in an actionable way.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> This time she saw that what she had taken for a watch on Luciente's
> wrist was not only that, or not that at all. He was not lifting it to his
> ear to hear it tick, but it spoke almost inaudibly. "What's that?" My
> kenner. Computer link? Actually it is a computer as well, my own memory
> annex (p52)....It ties into an encyclopedia - a knowledge computer. Also
> into transport and storage. Can serve as locator-speaker. (P 64)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> NINO: Nonsense In, Nonsense Out- that's the motto on every kenner.
> It means your theory is no better than your practice, or your body than
> your nutrition. Your encyclopedia only produces the information or
> misinformation fed to it. So on (p67)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Allright, you have all these things on your wrist. Somewhere there
> is a big computer. How does it recognise you? " My own memory annex is in
> my computer", Lucent said. " With the transport of an encyclopedia, you
> just call for what you want." " But what about the police? What about the
> government? How do they keep track of you if you keep changing names?"Again
> a great buzz of confusion and kenner checking passed around the table, with
> half of them turning to each other instead. " This is complicated." The old
> woman, Sojourner shook her head. " Government I think I can grasp. Lucent
> can show you the government, but nobody's working there today." (p*0)
> > >>>>
> > >>>> "Our technology did not develop in a straight line from yours",
> Lucent said seriously, looking with shiny black gaze, merry, alert in a way
> that cast grace notes around her words. " We have limited resources. We
> plan cooperatively. We can afford to waste...nothing. You could say our
> religion? - ideas make us see ourselves as partners with water, air, birds,
> fish, trees." " We learned a lot from societies people used to call
> primitive. Primitive technically. But socially sophisticated...We tried to
> learn from cultures that dealt well with handling conflict, promoting
> cooperation, coming of age, growing a sense of community, getting sick,
> aging, going mad, dying, - (p132)
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ➔ The vision of Marge Piercy on computing can only be
> characterized as very advanced is we look at what was actually happening in
> 1976:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> ● “Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak demonstrated the first Apple
> computer at the Home Brew Computer Club in April 1976. The Apple I had 6502
> MOS (Metal-Oxide-Semiconductor), 1 MHz processor, 8 kB of onboard memory,
> and 1 kB of VRAM (Video Random-Access Memory) for $666.66.
> > >>>> ● Intel introduced the 8085 processor in March 1976.
> > >>>> ● Steve Wozniak designed the first Apple, the Apple I
> computer, in 1976; later, Wozniak and Steve Jobs co-founded Apple Computers
> on April Fools' Day.
> > >>>> ● The first 5.25-inch floppy disk was invented in 1976.
> > >>>> ● Zilog, Inc. introduced the Z80 eight-bit microprocessor.
> > >>>> ● Microsoft introduced an improved version of BASIC.
> > >>>> ● On February 3, 1976, David Bunnell published an article by
> Bill Gates complaining about software piracy in his Computer Notes Altair
> newsletter.
> > >>>> ● Professor at Bowling Green State University first used the
> term "computer ethics."[4] <>
> > >>>> ● In December 1976, Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard to
> devote all his time to Microsoft[5] <>.”
> > >>>>
> > >>>> It is clear that there was no comprehensive framework at the time
> to reflect on the influence and repercussions on introducing computers into
> society. In hindsight it is easy to say that this was logical as it was
> introduced by computer scientists and engineers to gradually bring
> industrial machines and processes to individual citizens. However, Marge
> Piercy was able to imagine a world in which everyone was ‘person’
> foreshadowing the gender and LQBTQ movement, a world full of mobile phones,
> and these mobile phones were instrumental and integrated into larger
> decision making processes as well as serving as real time feedback on
> actions, and sketches two trajectories of how the future can look:
> dystopian autocratic (the city of control) and utopian balanced (the city
> of trust). Her work is called feminist and in the 2016 Introduction to the
> reprint of the novel she calls it ‘profoundly anarchist and aimed at
> integrating people back into the natural world and eliminating power
> relationships:
> > >>>>
> > >>>> “I am always interested in who controls technology at any given
> society at a particular time. Who decides that trolleys and passenger
> trains are obsolete but cars are all-important and our cities must be built
> around them as if they were the primary inhabitants? Who chooses which
> technology is explored?
> > >>>>
> > >>>> In the 2012 Transformational Technologies #4: Implications for an
> Expanding Threat Environment Conference, there were several lectures, one
> of which was on the history of anarchism. The speaker went through a long
> list of bombings and attacks, only to end on one in particular to state
> that the reasons behind it were unknown and that no one knew why he
> actually threw that bomb.As I was sitting in the audience I was very
> surprised to hear this and to think that as no one on the room reacted, a
> lot of intelligence attendants felt the same. No doubt that there was no
> particular idiosyncratic reason for that attack, but that it symbolized
> some form of power structure. The real reason was a lifelong felt injustice
> for the entire political situation. This does not justify the attack, but
> it shows that law enforcement and intelligence seem to think these events
> somehow come out of the blue, whereas they evolve in a long process from
> deeply felt injustice and lack of being part of decision making processes.
> On July 1, 1910, in Tobolsk the Omsk Military Tribunal sentenced Sergei
> Vilkov to death. He was found at 9 o'clock that same evening, dead in his
> cell. “He had tied a length of rope to a ring in the wall tha supported his
> bed and while lying had slowly strangled himself to death.”[4] This process
> of radicalization can be guided towards more productive ends if individuals
> are recognized and followed up earlier in life.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Current technological and socio-cultural reality could not have
> emerged nor evolved without tools from anarchist theory and praxis. These
> tools are currently not recognized. Anarchism still has a bad reputation.
> Yet without broadly educating citizens into self-organization on matters of
> data and identity (owning and using private and public keys) positive
> cybernetics will be impossible. Anarchism – “a political theory, which is
> skeptical of the justification of authority and power, especially political
> power”[1] is equated with chaos, unrest, violence, and terror[2]. Yet,
> without it blockchain, decentralization as a technical force favoring the
> ‘edge’ over the ‘cloud’, cryptocurrencies and p2p platforms, digital twins,
> and Proof of Work, Decentralization, Satoshi Nakamoto Consensus, Asset
> Tokenization, Freedom Blocks, Global Public Ledger [3], the Internet of
> Things, Industry 4.0 and Self Sovereign Identity could not have been
> conceived.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> As humans are equal, generic infrastructures should support all of
> them equally in their basic (food, shelter, care, education) and
> intellectual (no blockades in any information flow) needs. How simple can
> it be, how true this is and how absurd we are not living this reality now.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> The most fundamental anarchist protocol is the protocol of the
> internet itself, as it simply says: pass on the packet. It is a radically
> new way of organizing data and information. It has created industrial
> giants and a political system, but it has not yet created a fair, social
> and just system making use of all current technological resources.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [1] Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy,
> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/anarchism/
> > >>>> [2] Lucy Parsons: “I am an anarchist. I suppose you came here, the
> most of you, to see what a real, live anarchist looked like. I suppose some
> of you expected to see me with a bomb in one hand and a flaming torch in
> the other but are disappointed in seeing neither. If such has been your
> ideas regarding an anarchist, you deserved to be disappointed. Anarchists
> are peaceable, law-abiding people. What do anarchists mean when they speak
> of anarchy? Webster gives the term two definitions chaos and the state of
> being without political rule. We cling to the latter definition. Our
> enemies hold that we believe only in the former.”
> https://www.blackpast.org/african-american-history/1886-lucy-parsons-i-am-anarchist/
> > >>>> [3] Listed in a Tweet Blockchaintiger.rvn – Joshua
> @blockchaintiger
> > >>>> Aug 23
> > >>>> “Ravolutoion!” $RVN Gem stone
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Proof of Work
> > >>>> Decentralization
> > >>>> Satoshi Nakamoto Consensus
> > >>>> Asset Tokenization
> > >>>> Freedom Blocks
> > >>>> Global Public Ledger
> > >>>>
> > >>>> $RVN Gem stone aka #Bitcoin 3.0 is entering the first
> halving.
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [4] Daniel Beer, The House of the Dead, Siberian Exiles under the
> Tsars, Allen Lane, 2016, p 381.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [1] <>
> https://theweek.com/news/science-health/954485/why-psychosis-is-on-the-rise
> > >>>> [2] <> Mental Health America releases analysis of its 2023 online
> mental health screens; U.S. sees continued rise of anxiety, psychosis and
> ADHD risk
> > >>>>
> https://mhanational.org/news/2023-online-mental-health-screens-analysis
> > >>>>
> > >>>> [3] <> Project Xanadu (/ˈzænəduː/ ZAN-ə-doo) was the first
> hypertext project, founded in 1960 by Ted Nelson. Administrators of Project
> Xanadu have declared it superior to the World Wide Web, with the mission
> statement: "Today's popular software simulates paper. The World Wide Web
> (another imitation of paper) trivialises our original hypertext model with
> one-way ever-breaking links and no management of version or contents."
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Xanadu
> > >>>> [4] <> Walter Maner, a philosopher who teaches computer science at
> Bowling Green University, is credited with coin- ing the actual term
> "computer ethics" in 1976, although he states that it is still too early to
> provide a formal definition for the term. He observes that when the
> computer is in- volved in moral problems, the problems tend to be exacer-
> bated and new ones may even be created [1]. Deborah Johnson, a philosopher
> at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute who wrote one of the first books about
> computer ethics [2], states that the ethical problems related to computers
> are not unique. They are the same old problems of privacy, power and
> property, but they tend to occur on a much larger scale because of
> computers. She calls computer ethics a "new species of generic moral
> problems [1]."
> > >>>>
> https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/271125.271138#:~:text=Walter%20Maner%2C%20a%20philosopher%20who,formal%20definition%20for%20the%20term
> .
> > >>>> [5] <>
> https://www.computerhope.com/history/1976.htm#:~:text=printer%20in%201976.-,New%20computer%20products%20and%20services%20introduced%20in%201976,disk%20was%20invented%20in%201976
> .
> > >>>>
> > >>>>
> > >>>> —
> > >>>>
> > >>>> Wishing you all a good Sunday! Rob
> > >>>>
> > >>>> _______________________________________________
> > >>>> Brico mailing list
> > >>>> Website on http://www.bricolabs.net <http://www.bricolabs.net/>
> > >>>> Unsubscribe:
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/brico
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >> Unsubscribe:
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> >
>
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::
Re: [Bricolabs] The Kenner
