For a while I was enthusiastic about Oberon, also Modula 3 which is very similar. I read all the papers and obtained some compilers for experiments (the compiler situation is honestly not great which is probably due to the small number of people using these languages and the researchy nature of them). The drawcard was that it promised to be a memory-safe language with similar features to C. However, in the end I was disappointed as it seems these languages do not have pointers. They do have pass by reference which is an improvement on java, but otherwise the feature set is basically the same as java. And apparently the designer of java (James Gosling) studied Oberon/M3 carefully in the process of specifying java.



So unless you are particularly keen to use the special syntax of Oberon/M3 for creating modules (which are something like a class but not quite, maybe Ada has something closer to it), then I recommend to use java instead of Oberon/M3. I would however be interested to learn more about Ada. There is also an extension of Ada which allows to specify invariants and have them enforced by the compiler, which supposedly gives you the same ability that Rust has of reasoning about ownership but in a more generic way. It is called Spark. I haven't tried Spark or Ada but I think it could well be worth a look.



Kind regards,

Nick








>
> On 30 Sept 2024 at 9:47 pm, dng-request <dng-request@???> wrote:
>
>
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: Learning C (books) (o1bigtenor)
> 2. Systemd: why not even use two messaging systems instead of
> just one? (Martin Steigerwald)
> 3. Comparing prg.lang.s (was: Learning C (books)) (karl@???)
> 4. Re: Uptime issue, alternatives to gmail (terryc)
> 5. Re: Learning C (books) (Didier Kryn)
> 6. Re: Uptime issue, alternatives to gmail (o1bigtenor)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2024 13:30:15 -0500
> From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@???>
> Cc: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Learning C (books)
> Message-ID:
> <CAPpdf59nAmO_8UK5H4nYaybb8p+-3gxnjHGqauHRyrPzGc-FgA@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 12:05?PM Didier Kryn <kryn@???> wrote:
>
> > Le 28/09/2024 ? 23:40, Wm. Moss via Dng a ?crit :
> > > In my opinion, most people who code should not be using a language
> > > that allows for pointer access, pointer arithmetic, and the other low
> > > level access and side effects that are built into the language. That
> > > said, there are to my knowledge no good Algol based languages in
> > > common use. Pascal and its progeny (Modular, Modular-2, Modular-3)
> > > never caught on and the original Iron Man became a horror of
> > > complexity as Ada. The current P-Code languages such as Python and
> > > Java are, for me, too slow and exhibit an annoying syntax. Propriety
> > > languages such as PL/I could have succeeded if their parent companies
> > > had released them into the public domain.
> >
> > I beg to disagree about the Algol family. Pascal seems now
> > outdated, but Ada is in use everywhere human life is at stake. It is not
> > a horror of complexity. It is verbose, particularly when compared to C,
> > but much easier to read. Except for fast prototyping, a line of program
> > is written once and read many times; therefore reading matters more. Ada
> > can do simple things simply and, obviously, complicated things in a more
> > complicated way. You don't need to know about "tagged records" (objects)
> > to write Ada programs. C++ forces you to OOP, Ada offers several
> > solutions in most cases; you don't need objects to write generic
> > subprograms. Everything is easier in Ada than in C++.
> >
> >
> With this I would want to ask - - - how available are the software tools to
> allow
> me to use things like Ada or maybe even Oberon?
>
> Then , in practical terms, how does the speed of processing compare between
> C, C++, Ada and Oberon?
>
> (I found some comparisons but don't remember Ada and definitely no
> Oberon.)
>
> TIA
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2024 20:53:47 +0200
> From: Martin Steigerwald <martin@???>
> To: Devuan ML <dng@???>
> Subject: [DNG] Systemd: why not even use two messaging systems instead
> of just one?
> Message-ID: <3315020.aeNJFYEL58@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> Hi!
>
> In addition to the complexity of DBUS, which I do not need on a server
> with Devuan at all, they now add another messaging protocol called
> varlink:
>
> https://www.phoronix.com/news/Systemd-Varlink-D-Bus-Future
>
> I am speechless.
>
> But why am I even surprised?
>
> It was Lennart who gave the talk about DBUS + varlink. At that I am not
> really surprised anymore. This guy embraces every opportunity to make
> things more complex and error prone.
>
> Hopefully this will help more people see that this way leads into the
> wrong direction.
>
> Best,
> --
> Martin
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2024 21:40:41 +0200 (CEST)
> From: karl@???
> To: dng@???
> Subject: [DNG] Comparing prg.lang.s (was: Learning C (books))
> Message-ID: <20240929194041.E1DA485C3A7E@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain
>
> If you want to compare languages, this might be a starting point:
> https://archive.org/details/comparingassessi0000unse
>
> Regards,
> /Karl Hammar
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 09:43:46 +1000
> From: terryc <terryc@???>
> To: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Uptime issue, alternatives to gmail
> Message-ID: <20240930094346.7b35fbae@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 23:52:34 +1000
> nick <nick@???> wrote:
>
> ...snip........
>
> > As regards getting off gmail (is that mz googly?
>
> Tutamail and Proton will each give you one free email address.
>
> terryc
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 11:38:07 +0200
> From: Didier Kryn <kryn@???>
> To: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Learning C (books)
> Message-ID: <2d790f0f-fd40-4cea-9b0a-4dd63057cf55@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"
>
> Le 29/09/2024 ? 20:30, o1bigtenor via Dng a ?crit?:
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 12:05?PM Didier Kryn <kryn@???> wrote:
> >
> > Le 28/09/2024 ? 23:40, Wm. Moss via Dng a ?crit?:
> > > In my opinion, most people who code should not be using a language
> > > that allows for pointer access, pointer arithmetic, and the
> > other low
> > > level access and side effects that are built into the language.
> > That
> > > said, there are to my knowledge no good Algol based languages in
> > > common use. Pascal and its progeny (Modular, Modular-2, Modular-3)
> > > never caught on and the original Iron Man became a horror of
> > > complexity as Ada. The current P-Code languages such as Python and
> > > Java are, for me, too slow and exhibit an annoying syntax.
> > Propriety
> > > languages such as PL/I could have succeeded if their parent
> > companies
> > > had released them into the public domain.
> >
> > ???? I beg to disagree about the Algol family. Pascal seems now
> > outdated, but Ada is in use everywhere human life is at stake. It
> > is not
> > a horror of complexity. It is verbose, particularly when compared
> > to C,
> > but much easier to read. Except for fast prototyping, a line of
> > program
> > is written once and read many times; therefore reading matters
> > more. Ada
> > can do simple things simply and, obviously, complicated things in
> > a more
> > complicated way. You don't need to know about "tagged records"
> > (objects)
> > to write Ada programs. C++ forces you to OOP, Ada offers several
> > solutions in most cases; you don't need objects to write generic
> > subprograms. Everything is easier in Ada than in C++.
> >
> >
> > With this I would want to ask - - - how available are the software
> > tools to allow
> > me to use things like Ada or maybe even Oberon?
> >
> > Then , in practical terms, how does the speed of processing compare
> > between
> > C, C++, Ada and Oberon?
>
> ??? Dunno about Oberon. For Ada you got GCC. Just 'apt-get install gnat'.
>
> ??? For processing speed, at 1st aproximation it must be the same for
> all compiled languages provided by GCC, for the following reason:
>
> ??? All GCC language front-ends convert instructions to a common
> intermediate code; then this code is converted to assembler and then the
> assembler source is ... well, assembled. Optimisations happen at all steps.
>
> ??? All instructions in all languages boil down to the same:
> expressions, assignments, branching and loops. The difference is in how
> rich and sophisticated the data representation may be, what is
> permitted, how expressive the language is in all these things and what
> safety features the language provides to the programmer. Safety features
> may be exercised at compile time and at run time.
>
> ??? You may have differences in compile time, I guess, but practically
> none in run time. If there are differences, nothing tells you, for a
> given application, which language would let you gain? a few microseconds.
>
> ??? If you write programs in Ada, the first thing you will notice is
> you get a number of compiler errors, but, when you've corrected your
> errors the program generally runs without error: the debugging step is
> dramatically reduced, compared to C.
>
> -- ??? Didier
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 30 Sep 2024 06:46:46 -0500
> From: o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@???>
> Cc: dng@???
> Subject: Re: [DNG] Uptime issue, alternatives to gmail
> Message-ID:
> <CAPpdf59pGSUizy4ZGfoHYYdQKVyJk_bkZekWdMdX5qdD0=LxRA@???>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> On Sun, Sep 29, 2024 at 6:43?PM terryc <terryc@???> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 29 Sep 2024 23:52:34 +1000
> > nick <nick@???> wrote:
> >
> > ...snip........
> >
> > > As regards getting off gmail (is that mz googly?
> >
> > Tutamail and Proton will each give you one free email address.
> >
> > The difficulty is not in getting another provider, yes I already have
> protonmail
> addresses, but its in the changing over all the connections. The 'moving
> house'
> in the electornic world is much more challenging than doing so pyhsically -
> - -
> there I just pay the post office a fee and for a year my mail is forwarded.
> I want more time than that and there is no real easy way to do the changeup
> - - - at least not as far as I know.
>
> Thanks for the suggestions.
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