Hi Didier, hi all,

Didier Kryn - 15.07.24, 10:30:56 CEST:
> Le 13/07/2024 à 12:54, Martin Steigerwald a écrit :
> > No. Again an across the board statement that in its entirety is not an
> > accurate assessment. With the introduction of KDE Frameworks they
> > introduced a level of clarity and modularity that I find to be
> > unparalleled in the world of integrated desktop solutions. The LXQt
> > desktop which is based to a good degree on KDE Frameworks is a living
> > example of that. I'd argue an LXQt based integrated desktop without
> > Akonadi and also Baloo would be similarly lightweight as an icewm
> > based one.
>

>      Sorry to jump into this discussion but the concept of "integrated
> desktop solution" is precisely the kind of thing which I don't want,
> because it goes against the idea of "do one thing etc" and the idea of
> software diversity. It is precisely one of the reasons why I dropped KDE
> around 20 years ago.

Sure, fair enough! Again: Do as you wish!

It almost feels as everyone now feels urged to use Plasma. But I do not
get why. Frankly: I never urged anyone to stop what they are using and
switch to Plasma. No matter what it is. So use your icewm, use your
awesome, use your whatever amazing setup as much as you like. While
letting me and others use Plasma. Can it be that simple? I think it can.
We are different, we have different preferences.

And that is absolutely fine.

I really do not get the fuss here.

I am skeptical of any top-bottom integration like parts of the desktop
environment not working without Systemd. However I do prefer that (most
of) my applications look and behave the same. I learn it once and apply it
almost everywhere. Like with my first experiences on Amiga. They called it
Intuition and have a library called "intuition.library". For a reason. I
hardly read any manual. It was the first computer I had with a graphical
environment by default. The first one with a mouse. I just started clicking
around and doing things. Later on I learned via the manual on how to use
the powerful command line as well. But I did not need to just to use the
computer.

Plasma meanwhile uses some Systemd features *if it is there* in several
places. But it still also runs without it. And as they like to run on
Android, on FreeBSD, on Haika I do not see that changing.

And even here its not an off/on decision: I can install anything I like.
For example I am using Evolution at work on Plasma instead of KMail and
its absolutely no problem. What may not work as expected is to wildly mix
together a desktop with both GNOME and Plasma *core* components running at
the same time. But in the end even that probably could be made workable.
However I read often enough how GNOME developers made it difficult for
everyone else, recently regarding icon themes of the KDE project.

Actually even in Amiga times… there was a style guide for GUI based
applications. There where standard libraries for them to use for example
for font sensing and localization. And if I consider how out of place a
simple Xterm window looks on any modern desktop. It does not even have a
scroll bar, at least not by default. And it never heard of scaling to the
resolution of the desktop presenting me with a font I almost cannot read
even on a 24 inch display. All of that in 2024? Are you *even kidding me*?
As long as I used standard conforming software on AmigaOS nothing looked
out of place. But with mix match of wildly different GUI applications,
especially from outside of any desktop environment eco systems, I wonder
how you would get a decent amount of consistency? ImageMagick is an
example. This software is beyond powerful. But their GUI? Horrible beyond
belief. Add to that some Tk based applications and all the rest of any
consistency is gone for good.

Mostly Plasma is doing similar than what has been done on AmigaOS: It is a
set of programs built on top of standards libraries like Qt and the KDE
Frameworks. A set of programs that look similar, have a similar menu
structure, a similar approach to context menus, similar keyboard shortcuts
and all of that. Sure Plasma is bigger and more complex, but the basic
idea is quite similar.

And honestly: Do you completely go without KDE or GNOME based apps? If so
how do you manage that? What apps are you using?

I am sure some do. For example those users who prefer to do everything on
the command line. There is a plethora of extremely powerful command line
applications. I am coming from the Amiga and from day one I had both. I
still use both command line and GUI based applications. And I love how
with KDE apps almost everywhere I can just open a terminal pane with the
press of a key. One application: I often enough download sources for my
research via yt-dlp. I most often do it this way: Open Dolphin, navigate
to the directory of my choice probably create a new directory, press F4 to
open terminal emulator within Dolphin, and then Ctrl-R to access one of my
last yt-dlp calls… I would not want to miss that. I like to have the best
of both worlds. Still I think people who only use command line, maybe
together with a tiling window manager together with a web browser
controlled by Vim like key bindings can be very very effective with that. I
appreciate what they are doing, even admiring it at times. But its not for
me *currently*. Maybe at some time, but not currently.

AmigaOS since version 2 even has something somewhat similar to DBUS. A
complete ARexx script interpreter with a library where applications can
open ARexx ports to listen to for commands. And if I see the vast amount
of really practical applications of ARexx within the Amiga area I
certainly would not want to miss out on that. But do I need something like
DBUS on a server? So far certainly not.

Also from what I see KDE based software is quite modular these times. It
is certainly not perfect. But… it is quite possible to customize what
parts you like to use at least to *some* extent. Actually Plasma Mobile
looks a lot different, but still similar principles apply. Plasma can adapt
to almost any form factor these days.

Would be interesting to read, Didier, what exactly you use, and why. If
you like, please share! I will be opening a new thread about it.

Best,
--
Martin