---------------------------------------
-- Devuan meet 2024-01-11 @20:30 UTC --
---------------------------------------

Present: golinux, Hendrik, DelTomix

Regrets: setto, nietz, adam

Old Business
============

golinux
~~~~~~~

- Regarding devuanpup mentioned last week. As usual, those doing all
the work took on even more of the work . . . Here are a few notes that
fsmithred posted on IRC last night. Looks like there's not much devuan
in there and up to the user to put things together. So that explains
why it isn't on our derivative list:
  - I had a partial look at DevuanPup and afaict there are only about
half a dozen devuan packages installed. Maybe I can take a closer look.
  - correction: four of our forked packages
  - ii  fdisk                     2.38.1-5devuan1+b1  amd64  
collection of partitioning utilities
  - ii  gir1.2-udisks-2.0:amd64   2.9.4-4devuan1      amd64   GObject
based library to access udisks2 - introspection data
  - ii  libudisks2-0:amd64        2.9.4-4devuan1      amd64   GObject
based library to access udisks2
  - ii  udisks2 
  - sources.list has one line enabled - just daedalus main. No -
security or -updates (they're commented). I'm guessing that's a
leftover from when daedalus was still in testing.
  - Oh, one other sigificant finding. systemd is installed and on hold,
and sysvinit, runit or openrc are not installed.
    - (DelTomix) It would be nice if it were a candidate for puppylinux
to add a devuanpup to their list here:
https://puppylinux-woof-ce.github.io/ . It looks perhaps
underdeveloped? I'm not sure.

plasma41
~~~~~~~~

usr merge musings
-----------------
- FWIW, the way I see it there are two main benefits of having a split
between /{bin,sbin,lib} and /usr/{bin,sbin,lib}:
1) Continuity with the historical split present in prior releases
2) The ability to initialize a small subset of the system to the
point that network connections can be made and local or remote disks
can be mounted to provide the rest of the system.
It is my rather shakey understanding that (2) is not supported in
Debian even just prior the introduction of usrmerge. (Something about
how initramfs/initrd are implemented). I personally feel that attempts
to revert usrmerge without addressing the AIUI currently broken state
of (2) is, perhaps, misguided. I am, admittedly, speaking very much
from the peanut gallery on this matter.

- This is largely preaching to the choir, but I think that if usrmerge
is going to happen cleanly, it cannot happen by means of symlinks, but
must happen by means of a rigorous process of moving the locations of
files within binary packages and copious and comprehensive use of
Conflicts and Breaks in binary package control files. When a file that
previously was installed directly in /{bin,sbin,lib} suddenly becomes
accessible from /usr/{bin,sbin,lib} not by a explicit move within the
package but by a symlink, someone will inevitably write code that
explicitly refers to it under /usr/{bin,sbin,lib} rather than under
/{bin,sbin,lib}. Likewise, with symlinks at /{bin,sbin,lib} pointing to
/usr/{bin,sbin,lib}, suddenly files that where previously never in top-
level directories become accessible in those directories and, again,
someone will inevitably write code that explicitly refers to those
files directly in /{bin,sbin,lib} rather than /usr/{bin,sbin,lib}. Any
system that doesn't adopt the symlinks will experience breakage in both
of these inevitable senarios.

Usrmerge-by-symlink effectively changes the API such that all program
binaries and libraries must all each exist in two locations rather than
in a single location.

- See also the draft of DEP-17 https://subdivi.de/~helmut/dep17.html
- Why are you reposting your notes from last week? Appreciate it
happened before the meet started at least. :D

Old Actions
===========

New Business
============

golinux
~~~~~~~

- There was a discussion in the "The dev1galaxy.org (almost) No Code of
Conduct" sticky thread on Dev1Galaxy regarding the wording of #2 which
deals with behavior on the forum. It was discussed and resolved.

Xenguy
~~~~~~

- Web site copyright year in footer incremented to 2024.
- 3 Other non-www page footers also incremented (thanks bb|hcb and
fsmithred).
- Added section to personal web site notes documenting the above.

New Actions
===========


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--
Set Hallström
AKA Setto Sakrecoer