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-- Devuan meet 2024-01-04 @20:30 UTC --
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Present: gnu_srs (never connected or even tried afawk), hendrik,
golinux, plasma41, fsmithred, zach (couldn't connect)

Regrets: DelTomix

Old Business
============

Xenguy
~~~~~~

In response to user feedback from #devuan, Daedalus install
instructions page was recently updated to specify correct filenames for
the various references to 'SHA256SUMS' (Thanks fsmithred and
DelTomix!).https://www.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/daedalus/install-devuan#images

Old Actions
===========

New Business
============

<whoami>?
~~~~~~~~~

Time to make a decision about the usrmerge mess!
- I propose that we start forking debian packages to revert insane
decision of everything to /usr! I'm volunteering.

About init scripts:
- Create a sysvinit set of essential init scripts (<=100?) needed for a
successful boot.
All the remaining 800+ init scripts starting services can be handled
by other sources like s6,etc if needed.
- (fsmithred) There's already a package called orphan-sysvinit-
scripts

golinux
~~~~~~~

Someone asked about https://sourceforge.net/projects/devuanpup/ when it
popped up #1 in a search for "Devuan". It seems to have been around for
a long time. Can someone please take a look whether devuanpup would be
eligible to be added to our derivatives list? If yes, I will contact
the developer to ask if he would like to to added. Thanks!
- (Xenguy) Looks to be a Spanish description on the page. Appears to
be Puppy Linux + Devuan.
- (gl) But should we list it on the derivatives page? To do that
someone needs to actually boot and test it to see what's there. That's
not going to be me. Any volunteers?

plasma41
~~~~~~~~

usr merge musings
-----------------
- FWIW, the way I see it there are two main benefits of having a split
between /{bin,sbin,lib} and /usr/{bin,sbin,lib}:
1) Continuity with the historical split present in prior releases
2) The ability to initialize a small subset of the system to the
point that network connections can be made and local or remote disks
can be mounted to provide the rest of the system.
It is my rather shakey understanding that (2) is not supported in
Debian even just prior the introduction of usrmerge. (Something about
how initramfs/initrd are implemented). I personally feel that attempts
to revert usrmerge without addressing the AIUI currently broken state
of (2) is, perhaps, misguided. I am, admittedly, speaking very much
from the peanut gallery on this matter.
- (hendrik) (2) seems to have been working in Devuan as of Beowulf,
and so presumably also in Debian Buster.

- This is largely preaching to the choir, but I think that if usrmerge
is going to happen cleanly, it cannot happen by means of symlinks, but
must happen by means of a rigorous process of moving the locations of
files within binary packages and copious and comprehensive use of
Conflicts and Breaks in binary package control files. When a file that
previously was installed directly in /{bin,sbin,lib} suddenly becomes
accessible from /usr/{bin,sbin,lib} not by a explicit move within the
package but by a symlink, someone will inevitably write code that
explicitly refers to it under /usr/{bin,sbin,lib} rather than under
/{bin,sbin,lib}. Likewise, with symlinks at /{bin,sbin,lib} pointing to
/usr/{bin,sbin,lib}, suddenly files that where previously never in top-
level directories become accessible in those directories and, again,
someone will inevitably write code that explicitly refers to those
files directly in /{bin,sbin,lib} rather than /usr/{bin,sbin,lib}. Any
system that doesn't adopt the symlinks will experience breakage in both
of these inevitable senarios.

Usrmerge-by-symlink effectively changes the API such that all program
binaries and libraries must all each exist in two locations rather than
in a single location.

New Actions
===========

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--
Set Hallström
AKA Setto Sakrecoer