On Wed, 13 Dec 2023 00:36:56 +0100
Didier Kryn <kryn@???> wrote:

> Le 13/12/2023 à 00:05, Alexandros Prekates via Dng a écrit :
> > So emacs presents it self as capable of acting as an edit server
> > (1) And how the emacs manual propose to us to elevate it into a
> > user service?
>
>     The very existence of /usr/bin/emacs *is* a great service
> provided to the user: every one can run as many instances of it as
> needed, and there is no need for a complicated operation through dbus
> to use it.
>
>     Why not "elevate" gcalculator, libreoffice or foo-bar to behave
> as servers activated through dbus? But to gain what?
>
>     I'm curious to learn in what sense the emacs experience would be
> different, if it was provided by a permanently running emacs server
> to which users would connect through dbus? Appart from being
> complicated and fragile.
>
> --     Didier
>
>
>

I agree. "The very existence of /usr/bin/emacs *is* a great service
provided to the user".

I try to frame the discussion in the Desktop User workFlow setup ,
Management and supervision (DUFM) umbrella term. I hope that , that
framing's merits can be come up from this discussion.(an example: how
many hours have you ever spent to setup your programs in a certain
layout in you multi-monitor system ? That is essentially a DUMF
subprocess with the user acting as an DUMF admin. Devilspie2 ! Or when
we rearrange our window in a complex deet tree of a tiling WM that
again could seen as a part of DUMF)

As you said calculator is an example .It could
have state , history , favorite functions-operations, plotting ,
calc-o-pedia and could be usefull in many
user desktop flows. With sadness i admit that when i need it asap
many times i endup in duckduckgo calculator!! Why ? Because my web
browser is always there open!. But wouldnt it be cool to call
calc-client by a desktop shortcut or by a app related shortcut
(call calc server ?) :-)

So in the DUFM framing i think the user case that emacs is chasing
as a 'service' is that of being more accesible to other apps that
use editing and also becoming one-instance program . Those two things
also are tied together. Being more accessible or offering a common
use case (text editing) means that you can be called from various other
desktop components . But that use case has its shortcomings. In my email
client i have also a lot of state (address book , templates ,
discussion threads etc.) That state wont be accessible to emacs!
So i think the workflows are more complex and creating
a post you may need access to emacs functions and state but maybe also
to other programs. And have shared data formats.

I am not aware if emacs can work as a single instance using dbus .

Fun fact : decades ago window95 had
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_Linking_and_Embedding that allow
to access for example an editor from other user programs inside their
windows! It was like seen a frankenstein in your screen... At least
that is my recalled feeling of that passed moment... :-)

Personally i use the clipboard to transfer data between apps .

In DUFM ,automation or scripting would follow established and favorite
user practices. DUFM would need a user-init and user-supervisor system.
DUFM would leverage mainly services provided by the Init system
managed by sysadm with root priviliges.

What troubles me is do you need a dbus system of IPC in order for
a DUMF to manage DUF ? Or automate-script DUFs ? I think communication
is mostly required in the lines of DUF's Supevisor <-----> Flownucleus.
Flownucleus would be the most permanent user process that are part of
a certain user flow.

Can the Unix tty era lead us ? Could it be that i spell out
jargon describing things already being thougth and solved ?

I think that the unix era tty based workflow premise of composing
simple tools is a base but multitude of info-formats, the internet and
the desktop allows more complex flows .And complexity usually begets
a need for automated supervision. And automated supervision begets
thicker communication lines between the supervisor and her(his)
subjects.

So you need a DUFSupervisor for managing and coordinating DUFs and a
communication link connecting DUFS with his(her) DUFs . Lets called that
DUF-DUFS link .DUF-DUFS-L.

Could it be also that all that i speak out garbage ? For god's sake..
we are speaking about the mundane desktop .. word processing .. little
browsing ... little solitaire. what the hell is all that DUMF,DUFS
crap and user init systems ? :-)

Alexandros.