Thanks Manfred for the contribution. I'm not a technician but I understand
this logic of reasoning which is not lacking. Little OT, the dear friend
and developer Franco (nextime) Lanza, Italian like me, is he always with
you all? I would very much like him to continue the development and growth
of DEVUAN as well.
Thank,
Federico

Il giorno ven 28 lug 2023 alle ore 17:42 Manfred Wassmann via Dng <
dng@???> ha scritto:

> On Thu, Jul 27, 2023 at 10:47 PM Hendrik Boom <hendrik@???>
> wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 21, 2023 at 11:40:15AM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
>> > capercally.bleery670@??? said on Thu, 20 Jul 2023 18:13:29
>> -0700
>> >
>> > >https://diziet.dreamwidth.org/15336.html
>> > >
>> > Why is this being discussed on the DeVUan mailing list? If you want
>> > Debian without systemd, use Devuan.
>>
>> To the extent that Debian does work without systemd, the Devuan
>> developers will have an easier time.
>>
>
>
> That's one point but IMHO the most important point is that with his blog
> post Ian Jackson insinuates Devuan would be worthless and it's vital for
> Devuan to show he uses unfair and deceptive measures to achieve his goal. I
> already pointed out he uses the popular tactics of drawing conclusions from
> false assumptions, relying on casual readers not recognizing the initial
> if-statement is not necessarily true (and in fact isn't) and thus assume
> the trailing statement also would be.
> Other elements of his strategy are the (sublimally) pejorative remarks
> about Devuan(-Developers):
> "*lovely people, but overworked*",
> "*Devuan Chimaera had some problems with hardware support on the laptop
> in question, so wasn't a good option*" -- oh, really? sounds a bit like
> "I checked that used car offering but the ashtray was full".
>
> And then the final statement in his comment:
> 'You mention "the work of keeping sysv-init". Of course much of that
> work has been done *by Devuan folks* but *within Debian'*
> I think that needs to be clarified by the "Devuan folks" involved.
>
> Furthermore I just checked his rather complicated procedure tweaking the
> installation process isn't necessary as his statement "*systemd refuses
> to allow itself to be deinstalled, if it is already running, so if you boot
> into the systemd system you can’t then switch init system*" *IS WRONG*,
> because you can work around that much easier in a running system than is
> shown in the diziet blog post.
> You just have to remove a single, empty directory to disable the check in
> the systemd package's pre-remove script -- and Ian Jackson, who somewhat
> understatingly self-describes as "*very much a Debian insider*" -- must
> know that. Of course you have to make sure there is an appropriate init
> package (sysvinit-core|runit-init|...) properly installed before rebooting
> and you'll have to "mount -a -o remount,ro" and then powercycle the
> system as the standard shutdown options won't work when systemd is
> deinstalled but still running as pid 1.
>
> The check obviously has been placed there just to keep Debian users from
> replacing systemd and together with similar things that needs be
> communicated to Debian users in order for more of them to recognize how
> hostile Debian is for non-systemd setups, like the classical SysV-Init and
> modern replacements which are much leaner and (thus) safer than systemd.
> Otherwise many will fall for the FUD represented in Ian Jackson's post and
> that would be bad for the future of Devuan IMHO.
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