On Mon, 30 Dec 2019 15:10:46 +1100
terryc <terryc@???> wrote:

> On Sat, 28 Dec 2019 23:11:16 +1100
> Andrew McGlashan via Dng <dng@???> wrote:
>
> > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> > Hash: SHA256
> >
> > Hi,
> >

> > On 28/12/19 9:03 pm, Alexis PM via Dng wrote:  
> > > A mediocre result, neither good nor bad. The best option for
> > > people who don't want to use systemd, Option 6 "E: Support for
> > > multiple init systems is Required", came in last. But Option 1
> > > "F: Focus on systemd" came in second place, if it had won it
> > > would have been a tragedy.    

> >
> > It's completely broken when only one group of interested parties
> > have the only say; DDs should be ashamed. Another wasted
> > opportunity to make things right has been blown and there probably
> > won't be any other opportunity afforded ever again :(
> >
> > Debian needs to somehow find a way to include users (especially
> > sysadmins) in a meaningful way in votes of such significance.
>
> In my experience, when people who do not do the work start telling the
> people who do do the work, what to do, many efforts disintigrate.

I didn't hear anyone telling people what to do. I heard Tom ask a
question.

>
> As a user, I simply choose which best distribution serves my purpose
> and when it ceases to do so, I simply move on as I have in the past.

I think most of us have plan B and plan C in case sans-systemd distros
go bad or go defunct, but what I'm hearing you say is you think it's
bad to provide feedback to the VUAs, and instead will just switch
distros. Is that really superior to Tom's question?

Many years ago, on this mailing list, one of the VUAs mentioned that
the long term plan was to leave Debian behind and become the Devuan
independent distro. If I were a mind reader I'd guess that his
statement was because he foresaw the possibility of a future Debian
corruption like we're seeing today, he believed that continual
modification of Debian was not a safe way to perpetuate the creation of
Devuan, and eventually wanted to move away from that potential
catastrophe.

The GR results are at https://www.debian.org/vote/2019/vote_002 .
Debian's systemd-complexity voting mechanism is hard to interpret, but
two things are fairly clear:

1) The #2 option was to focus on systemd, screw other inits

2) The loser was "Support for multiple inits is required."

Under those circumstances, I'd say the Vua who mentioned moving away
from Debian eventually was wise and prescient. And given the results of
the GR I'd say Tom was asking a question both wise and obvious, not
trying to tell anyone what to do.

Nothing I've written above is meant to in any way belittle the fact
that the Devuan project has too few volunteers and volunteer hours and
therefore cannot immediately or perhaps in the near future completely
break away from Debian.

SteveT

Steve Litt
December 2019 featured book: Rapid Learning for the 21st Century
http://www.troubleshooters.com/rl21