Steve Litt - 07.07.19, 01:26:
> On Sat, 06 Jul 2019 08:49:52 +0200
>
> Martin Steigerwald <martin@???> wrote:
> > Steve Litt - 06.07.19, 07:24:
[…]
> > There is the debian-init-diversity group where Debian and Devuan
> > people work together. Back then I helped to bring that forward and
> > there is still a lot of activity.
>
> Thank you for that. Regardless of the final outcome, you did something
> important in undoing the savage mistakes of late 2014. A lot of
> people talk: You did something, and the something you did might
> benefit all of us.

Thanks.

[…]
> [snip sysvinit, insserv and startpar bug fixes]
>
> My feeling that sysvinit is not in safe hands in the Debian project
> isn't based on the quality of sysvinit or its components. As a matter
> of fact, I never noticed any bugs or weird stuff with sysvinit during
> the 13 years I used sysvinit as my daily driver init (with occasional
> forays into upstart and daemontools). My feeling is based on:
>
> 1) Corporate profit motive for keeping systemd the only init in town.
>
> 2) The (insert your own noun epithet) of "FreeDesktop.Org".
>

> 3) Systemd's technological ability to sabotage all attempts at
>    alt-initting a computer.

>
> 4) The huge moving-target workload necessary because of #3.
>
> 5) See the response to your next statement...

For me this is just a feeling. Not facts.

While I certainly can relate to the fear, I also know that up to now
Debian is still a 100% community project. Does it mean that it
absolutely cannot by manipulated by commercial actors? No.

But I'd rather not anticipate something happening by putting a lot of
energy, for example in the form of fear, into it. If I do not like it to
happen, then I am sure I am better off not to give energy to it.

And if it still happens I can act then.

None of what you stated above is here right now.

Fact is, that Debian can be run just fine – again! – without Systemd in
most of the circumstances.

> > While Debian project for now will keep the libsystemd0 dependency on
> > a lot of packages
>
> Which makes libsystemd0 the ideal kill switch for init diversity. One
> might ask who would be so mean as to kill init diversity within
> Debian? For a list of such people, see the original decision:
> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=727708

Nope, I won't. Reason is as simple as stated above: I'd give energy into
something I do not choose as a possible future.

Thus I'd rather use my time to help to bring forward the future I like
to see to the best of my ability.

[…]
> > So: If you like to provide runit support for fio Debian package,
> > please go ahead. As long as the runit support is implemented in a
> > way
> > that the existing start support for sysvinit – which I implemented
> > back then – and systemd still works as well, and you tested the
> > runit
> > support, I gladly accept a merge request. I'd even make some effort
> > to put it into the package itself, in case you provide something to
> > me, in case you are not familiar with forking a git repo and
> > providing a merge request.
>
> I can't think of anything I or anyone could do, regarding runit
> runscripts, that would adversely affect sysvinit. As far as systemd,
> runit and s6 are never going to use the systemd mechanism by which
> service A tells systemd that it's loaded, but if someone switched back
> to systemd, that mechanism will still be there.

Why? Currently my package supports both systems with sysvinit as well as
systemd. There are different debhelper commands for that. I'd imagine
that would work with runit as well.

> > So I believe it is good to let go of any drama and fear and just get
> > on with actually doing something to improve runit / s6 support.
>
> Well, if I were to help integrate runit and s6 into Devuan either
> directly or through Debian, would it really matter if my incentive
> included drama and fear?

For me it does.

The fear may tell me that it is keeping me safe. My own direct
experience through letting go tells something different however: Fear
keeps me stuck. With fear I give my power away to what I imagine would
be stronger than me. Like in your case, I dramatize a bit: "big large
evil commercial corporations".

What if I just let go of the fear instead? Or welcome it and then move
on which is basically the same. It is just a feeling. It is not the
truth.

However now I let go of wanting to control your experience. You may
invent as much drama and fear as you'd like. I just won't take part in
that.

I bet I may just have replied cause all the near conspiracy-theory drama
and fear stuff here and else sometimes just gets on my nerves. But can I
let this go as well? Can I let go of wanting to give my power away as to
whether apparent other(s) play the game of drama and fear or not?

Yes.

Thank you,
--
Martin