On Tuesday 01 January 2019 08:11:44 pm golinux@??? wrote:
> Sorry. Forgot to send to the list.
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: Re: [DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish?
> Date: 2019-01-01 18:50
> From: golinux@???
> To: Michael <mb_devuan-mailinglist@???>
>
> On 2019-01-01 17:34, Michael wrote:
> > Hi golinux and everyone else,
> >
> > Okay, I’m breaking this topic off from the ‘Added desktop-live to the
> > install
> > guides’ as it seems we have a much higher, philosophical level decision
> > to
> > make before we can continue with editing the Devuan Install Guide.
> > Which is:
> >
> > == What should an Install Guide accomplish?
>
> Before that, it might be good for you to understand a little better
> where Devuan is coming from.
>
> > # # #
> >
> > My take is that an Install Guide is a complete set of instructions that
> > a
> > person can follow to fully accomplish the task. There are no
> > ambiguities
> > presented to the user, as it is literally do step a), do step b), do
> > step
> > c) ...
>
> As explained elsewhere. These documents were originally created for
> inclusion on the ascii isos and have been re-purposed to go on the
> website. They were never intended as a complete set of instructions. Are
> you even aware of dev1fanboy's wiki?
> https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan
> Or the friends of devaun wiki?
> https://friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php
>
> > Each step should be fully explained and if there is more than one
> > primary
> > method of doing any of the steps, then each method is explained. In
> > this
> > case my take is that both Nix and Windows instructions should be
> > available.
>
> See below.
>
> > # # Minor points
> >
> > = I am fully against against repeating any information on a website.
> > As doing
> > so almost always leads to discrepancies between the difference sources.
> > If
> > the Devuan site is using a CMS of some sort, then a single source
> > should be
> > able to be created and block inclusions can be then placed anywhere
> > else on
> > the site as needed. [1]
>
> The site is intricately hand-coded in markdown. Not my doing; I
> inherited it and have learned to live with it.
>
> > = I do think that anything a user needs to know to make an intelligent
> > decision should be either on the page or directly linked to. If linked
> > to,
> > then clicking the link should not close or overwrite the Install Guide
> > page.
>
> The best documemntation will be useless if no one reads it. See below.
> Isn't that what a scrollwheel click is for?
>
> > = For an Install Guide I’m against ‘Minimalism.’ My feeling is that
> > not
> > giving total, and literally an over abundance of information, not only
> > directly inhibits and stops people from doing the Install, but also
> > creates
> > vast negative word of mouth from those who attempt the Install but
> > can’t
> > complete it because they aren’t given enough information to physically
> > be
> > able to follow it.
>
> Even though information is already available on the site and elsewhere,
> quite often there will be questions that could be readily answered with
> a little effort on the user's part. So it is not a lack of information
> problem but a "you can't fix stupid" problem. Bloating the guide won't
> change that human behavior.
>
> > = If golinux agrees to ‘an over abundance of information approach,’ I
> > have no
> > issue re-writing the whole guide. (As you may have noticed I’m a bit
> > gabby.)
> > I will need someone with a Windows box to QC those instructions.
>
> I am a minimalist personally as is the target audience of this distro.
> We are not seeking to court desktop users and overtake the desktop
> market. In fact, we considered launching this distro without ANY
> desktop!! That would have left desktop development to derivatives of
> which we have many. So I think you're not understanding who we are,
> where we are coming from and where we want to go.
>
> Feel free to open a project in our gitlab for us to review.
>
> > # # #
> >
> > Okay, that’s my fairly opinionated opinion. I think ultimately this is
> > golinux’s decision, but please everyone else jump in with yea’s, nay’s,
> > and
> > what you think the answer to the question is ;) Also, please don’t
> > feel shy
> > about bringing up what you think the ramifications might be for the
> > different
> > options/opinions/methods. I bring this last point up, as I have a gut
> > feel
> > that if we come to agreement on the ramifications, then we’ll have
> > our ‘decision’ per say made for us.
>
> It is not MY decision. It is OUR decision. But . . .
>
> While I can appreciate your enthusiasm, jumping into an established
> community that works well together and starting to rearrange the
> furniture is a very strange way to make an entrance. Think bull:china
> shop.
>
> > Best Regards All and Happy New Year!,
> > Michael
> >
> > PS: golinux, my full apologies if I’ve stepped on your toes :( and/or
> > exceeded what you’re willing to take under discussion.
>
> You should be apologizing to the community not to me. We are in this
> together, have long standing working relationships and have a common
> vision. It is a big red flag when some stranger who drops in from who
> knows where and with what agenda starts telling us what to do and how to
> do it. If you can do it better, show us, we'll have a look and decide
> what to do with it if anything.
>
> > [1] I host and manage Drupal (CMS) websites, this generally takes 10
> > minutes
> > to setup. I can discuss this offline with whoever as desired.
>
> I have never been impressed by Drupal or Django any of the other 100s of
> CMS out there. I shudder to think that Devuan would choose to go down
> that road. You might notice that the Devuan site is a cookie free zone
> and think also free of java script. We do it our way.


Dear Devuan Community,

I intentionally waited 48+ hours after received this much unexpected reply by
golinux to reply. I first wanted to hear what the Devuan Community had to
reply to the question I put to it on what it wants.

My ethos is to ‘help.’ I guess you could call that my ‘agenda?’ Being
slapped in the face by golinux’s catch 22 of “because you’ve asked the
community its opinion,” “you don’t understand the community” doesn’t really
lead me to want to ‘help’ the group he/she leads. More to the point, about
the only thing one can find on devuan.org about the “community’s vision” that
someone new is suppose to ‘know’ is “Devuan GNU+Linux is a fork of Debian
without systemd.” And golinux, you consider someone who asks the community
its viewpoint as being a bull in a china shop?

golinux I believe you completely misunderstand where Minimalism is useful. In
code and program feature sets? Sure. Documentation? No. Think about it.
Maybe raise your consciousness some?

An no, I won’t ‘apologizing to the community’ for asking the community, not
golinux, what the community desires. Why exactly should I? Community, do
you feel the need for an apology from someone asking your opinion?

Being able to setup single source content with embedded block inclusions is a
technique that can be applied to any website. Takes 10 minutes in Drupal,
takes 20ish if you really like torturing yourself by hand-coding in markdown.
golinux why was your first impulse to bite the hand that not only could, but
wanted to!, help you?

And really, what’s the point of claiming a ‘cookie free zone’ if all the
supporting content is hosted elsewhere that uses cookies?

# # #

Community, as an observation, you do seem to have a pretty even split on those
that desire to ‘help’ and those that desire to just ‘ignore’ new users.

I do also give strong compliments to those that initiated and accomplished the
fork to remove systemd from Devuan.

# # #

I would not have continued to be a member of this community in light of
golinux’s reply, as I literally can not think of any way to re-word what
he/she wrote into something acceptable. But before I officially unsubscribe,
my ‘agenda’ makes me point out that Devuan 2.0 has a bug with un-mounting
encrypted disks/partitions (FDE) during shutdown which prohibits me from
being able to use Devuan in any event.

Later and I wish the best to those who share the ethos of helping,
Michael