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-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish?
Date: 2019-01-01 18:50
From: golinux@???
To: Michael <mb_devuan-mailinglist@???>

On 2019-01-01 17:34, Michael wrote:
> Hi golinux and everyone else,
>
> Okay, I’m breaking this topic off from the ‘Added desktop-live to the
> install
> guides’ as it seems we have a much higher, philosophical level decision
> to
> make before we can continue with editing the Devuan Install Guide.
> Which is:
>
> == What should an Install Guide accomplish?
>

Before that, it might be good for you to understand a little better
where Devuan is coming from.

>
> # # #
>
> My take is that an Install Guide is a complete set of instructions that
> a
> person can follow to fully accomplish the task. There are no
> ambiguities
> presented to the user, as it is literally do step a), do step b), do
> step
> c) ...
>

As explained elsewhere. These documents were originally created for
inclusion on the ascii isos and have been re-purposed to go on the
website. They were never intended as a complete set of instructions. Are
you even aware of dev1fanboy's wiki?
https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan
Or the friends of devaun wiki?
https://friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php

>
> Each step should be fully explained and if there is more than one
> primary
> method of doing any of the steps, then each method is explained. In
> this
> case my take is that both Nix and Windows instructions should be
> available.
>

See below.

> # # Minor points
>
> = I am fully against against repeating any information on a website.
> As doing
> so almost always leads to discrepancies between the difference sources.
> If
> the Devuan site is using a CMS of some sort, then a single source
> should be
> able to be created and block inclusions can be then placed anywhere
> else on
> the site as needed. [1]
>

The site is intricately hand-coded in markdown. Not my doing; I
inherited it and have learned to live with it.

>
> = I do think that anything a user needs to know to make an intelligent
> decision should be either on the page or directly linked to. If linked
> to,
> then clicking the link should not close or overwrite the Install Guide
> page.
>

The best documemntation will be useless if no one reads it. See below.
Isn't that what a scrollwheel click is for?

> = For an Install Guide I’m against ‘Minimalism.’ My feeling is that
> not
> giving total, and literally an over abundance of information, not only
> directly inhibits and stops people from doing the Install, but also
> creates
> vast negative word of mouth from those who attempt the Install but
> can’t
> complete it because they aren’t given enough information to physically
> be
> able to follow it.
>

Even though information is already available on the site and elsewhere,
quite often there will be questions that could be readily answered with
a little effort on the user's part. So it is not a lack of information
problem but a "you can't fix stupid" problem. Bloating the guide won't
change that human behavior.

> = If golinux agrees to ‘an over abundance of information approach,’ I
> have no
> issue re-writing the whole guide. (As you may have noticed I’m a bit
> gabby.)
> I will need someone with a Windows box to QC those instructions.
>

I am a minimalist personally as is the target audience of this distro.
We are not seeking to court desktop users and overtake the desktop
market. In fact, we considered launching this distro without ANY
desktop!! That would have left desktop development to derivatives of
which we have many. So I think you're not understanding who we are,
where we are coming from and where we want to go.

Feel free to open a project in our gitlab for us to review.

> # # #
>
> Okay, that’s my fairly opinionated opinion. I think ultimately this is
> golinux’s decision, but please everyone else jump in with yea’s, nay’s,
> and
> what you think the answer to the question is ;) Also, please don’t
> feel shy
> about bringing up what you think the ramifications might be for the
> different
> options/opinions/methods. I bring this last point up, as I have a gut
> feel
> that if we come to agreement on the ramifications, then we’ll have
> our ‘decision’ per say made for us.
>

It is not MY decision. It is OUR decision. But . . .

While I can appreciate your enthusiasm, jumping into an established
community that works well together and starting to rearrange the
furniture is a very strange way to make an entrance. Think bull:china
shop.

> Best Regards All and Happy New Year!,
> Michael
>
> PS: golinux, my full apologies if I’ve stepped on your toes :( and/or
> exceeded what you’re willing to take under discussion.
>

You should be apologizing to the community not to me. We are in this
together, have long standing working relationships and have a common
vision. It is a big red flag when some stranger who drops in from who
knows where and with what agenda starts telling us what to do and how to
do it. If you can do it better, show us, we'll have a look and decide
what to do with it if anything.

> [1] I host and manage Drupal (CMS) websites, this generally takes 10
> minutes
> to setup. I can discuss this offline with whoever as desired.
>

I have never been impressed by Drupal or Django any of the other 100s of
CMS out there. I shudder to think that Devuan would choose to go down
that road. You might notice that the Devuan site is a cookie free zone
and think also free of java script. We do it our way.