On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:03:47 +0100, Antony wrote in message
<201709181703.47988.Antony.Stone@???>:

> On Monday 18 September 2017 at 15:54:16, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 14:35:24 +0100, Antony wrote:
> > > On Monday 18 September 2017 at 14:27:04, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> >
> > ..and we still haven't proven it good enough for many of them.
> > And that can _only_ happen on Devuan Jessie LTS' own merit.
>
> So, we focus on getting people to use Devuan Jessie - not Wheezy.

..correct, we disagree on whether or not a minimal Devuan Wheezy
will be an useful tool.

> > > I don't think there's any point in Devuan attempting to support
> > > the outdated packages in Debian Wheezy when we are already
> > > offering an escape route to those syadmins who've chosen to stick
> > > with Wheezy because they don't want systemd.
> >
> > ..you missed my "_minimal_." ;o)
> > I agree supporting outdated stuff is a waste of time and good
> > manpower, it'll only be useful to help people update to Devuan
> > Jessie etc.
>
> I don't see the purpose of having a Devuan Wheezy.

..then we disagree, I only see it as an useful stepping stone
tool to help (convince) people upgrade to Devuan Jessie etc.

> After all, Debian Wheezy is systemd-free by default (yes, you can
> install it yourself if you want to, but people who've done that
> aren't looking for Devuan), so what's the benefit in us advertising a
> "systemd-free Wheezy" to the world?

..see above.

> Anyone doing a review of it would say "this is Debian with some
> optional packages taken out".

..see above.

> > ..according to http://popcon.debian.org/ 30809 had
> > popularity-contest 1.56 (wheezy) installed, about 11000 more have
> > even older versions, and according to our own
> > http://popcon.devuan.org/ and to http://popcon.debian.org/ we still
> > don't match the 2693 who might still have 1.46 (lenny) installed.
> >
> > ..plenty good manpower out there we could use here. ;o)
>
> What do you expect that "manpower" to do?

..some of them will help build Devuan in the same way they
have helped build Debian.
How many, and who, depends on how we welcome them.

> Not everyone running Debian as a sysadmin (or end user) is going to
> contribute to the Devuan project.

..correct.

> > > 2. Those who don't want to upgrade something that's still working.
> > >
> > > Devuan Jessie is the solution for group 1, and there is no
> > > solution for group 2 because they're happy with what they've
> > > already got.
> >
> > ..once we have proven e.g. Devuan Jessie LTS etc on their own
> > merits, they might get curious and wanna try our stuff and wind
> > up helping out. Just give it time. ;o)
>
> 1. Anyone who's running Debian Squeeze or earlier isn't failing to
> upgrade because of systemd, therefore Devuan isn't an argument in
> their case.

..correct, they only need upgrades if they somehow are exposed to
internet-like threats thru usb-sticks, old floppies, lan wiring,
dying BIOS chips (BTDT), UEFI firmware with timeouts etc.

> 2. Anyone running Debian Wheezy is either systemd-free, in which case
> Devuan Wheezy would be identical, or else they've installed systemd
> themselves, which presumably means they want to run it, and therefore
> aren't interested in Devuan.

..you forget the kinda people who got stuck with systemd because they
trusted Debian to be the good guys. BTDT.

..the only real difference between your vision of Debian Wheezy
and Devuan Wheezy is the upgrade path away from systemd.

..the difference between your vision of Devuan Wheezy and mine,
is I only want it to contain the bare minimum people might need
to _safely_ move on upgrading to Devuan Jessie.

..that bit "_safely_" is what most people hesitating, may wanna
see a track record on. And, either way, good or bad, we will
build it.

> 3. Anyone running Debian Wheezy who wants to upgrade to Jessie can
> upgrade to Devuan Jessie to avoid systemd. If there are problems
> with that upgrade process, *that*'s what we need help with debugging
> and fixing.

..that too, yes.

> 4. Anyone running Debian Jessie who wants to get away from systemd
> can also upgrade to Devuan Jessie. Again, if there are problems with
> that upgrade, that's where we need help, not with taking Debian
> Wheezy, stripping out the optional systemd bits, and relabelling it
> as Devuan.

..that's why I said "_minimal_", yank out "everything",
keep only what people may need to survive upgrading
from Debian Wheezy-and-earlier, to Devuan Jessie.

..the smaller it is, the easier it will be to support
and maintain.

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.