On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 21:26:24 +0100, Rowland wrote in message
<20170918212624.530e2893@???>:

> On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 22:09:08 +0200
> Arnt Karlsen <arnt@???> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 17:03:47 +0100, Antony wrote in message
> > <201709181703.47988.Antony.Stone@???>:
> >
> > > On Monday 18 September 2017 at 15:54:16, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Mon, 18 Sep 2017 14:35:24 +0100, Antony wrote:
> > > > > On Monday 18 September 2017 at 14:27:04, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > > >
> > > > ..and we still haven't proven it good enough for many of them.
> > > > And that can _only_ happen on Devuan Jessie LTS' own merit.
> > >
> > > So, we focus on getting people to use Devuan Jessie - not Wheezy.
> >
> > ..correct, we disagree on whether or not a minimal Devuan Wheezy
> > will be an useful tool.
> >
> > > > > I don't think there's any point in Devuan attempting to
> > > > > support the outdated packages in Debian Wheezy when we are
> > > > > already offering an escape route to those syadmins who've
> > > > > chosen to stick with Wheezy because they don't want systemd.
> > > >
> > > > ..you missed my "_minimal_." ;o)
> > > > I agree supporting outdated stuff is a waste of time and good
> > > > manpower, it'll only be useful to help people update to Devuan
> > > > Jessie etc.
> > >
> > > I don't see the purpose of having a Devuan Wheezy.
> >
> > ..then we disagree, I only see it as an useful stepping stone
> > tool to help (convince) people upgrade to Devuan Jessie etc.
> >
> > > After all, Debian Wheezy is systemd-free by default (yes, you can
> > > install it yourself if you want to, but people who've done that
> > > aren't looking for Devuan), so what's the benefit in us
> > > advertising a "systemd-free Wheezy" to the world?
> >
> > ..see above.
> >
> > > Anyone doing a review of it would say "this is Debian with some
> > > optional packages taken out".
> >
> > ..see above.
> >
> > > > ..according to http://popcon.debian.org/ 30809 had
> > > > popularity-contest 1.56 (wheezy) installed, about 11000 more
> > > > have even older versions, and according to our own
> > > > http://popcon.devuan.org/ and to http://popcon.debian.org/ we
> > > > still don't match the 2693 who might still have 1.46 (lenny)
> > > > installed.
> > > >
> > > > ..plenty good manpower out there we could use here. ;o)
> > >
> > > What do you expect that "manpower" to do?
> >
> > ..some of them will help build Devuan in the same way they
> > have helped build Debian.
> > How many, and who, depends on how we welcome them.
> >
> > > Not everyone running Debian as a sysadmin (or end user) is going
> > > to contribute to the Devuan project.
> >
> > ..correct.
> >
> > > > > 2. Those who don't want to upgrade something that's still
> > > > > working.
> > > > >
> > > > > Devuan Jessie is the solution for group 1, and there is no
> > > > > solution for group 2 because they're happy with what they've
> > > > > already got.
> > > >
> > > > ..once we have proven e.g. Devuan Jessie LTS etc on their own
> > > > merits, they might get curious and wanna try our stuff and wind
> > > > up helping out. Just give it time. ;o)
> > >
> > > 1. Anyone who's running Debian Squeeze or earlier isn't failing to
> > > upgrade because of systemd, therefore Devuan isn't an argument in
> > > their case.
> >
> > ..correct, they only need upgrades if they somehow are exposed to
> > internet-like threats thru usb-sticks, old floppies, lan wiring,
> > dying BIOS chips (BTDT), UEFI firmware with timeouts etc.
> >
> > > 2. Anyone running Debian Wheezy is either systemd-free, in which
> > > case Devuan Wheezy would be identical, or else they've installed
> > > systemd themselves, which presumably means they want to run it,
> > > and therefore aren't interested in Devuan.
> >
> > ..you forget the kinda people who got stuck with systemd because
> > they trusted Debian to be the good guys. BTDT.
> >
> > ..the only real difference between your vision of Debian Wheezy
> > and Devuan Wheezy is the upgrade path away from systemd.
> >
> > ..the difference between your vision of Devuan Wheezy and mine,
> > is I only want it to contain the bare minimum people might need
> > to _safely_ move on upgrading to Devuan Jessie.
> >
> > ..that bit "_safely_" is what most people hesitating, may wanna
> > see a track record on. And, either way, good or bad, we will
> > build it.
> >
> > > 3. Anyone running Debian Wheezy who wants to upgrade to Jessie can
> > > upgrade to Devuan Jessie to avoid systemd. If there are problems
> > > with that upgrade process, *that*'s what we need help with
> > > debugging and fixing.
> >
> > ..that too, yes.
> >
> > > 4. Anyone running Debian Jessie who wants to get away from systemd
> > > can also upgrade to Devuan Jessie. Again, if there are problems
> > > with that upgrade, that's where we need help, not with taking
> > > Debian Wheezy, stripping out the optional systemd bits, and
> > > relabelling it as Devuan.
> >
> > ..that's why I said "_minimal_", yank out "everything",
> > keep only what people may need to survive upgrading
> > from Debian Wheezy-and-earlier, to Devuan Jessie.
> >
> > ..the smaller it is, the easier it will be to support
> > and maintain.
> >
>
> The problem is that wheezy is only supported until May next year and
> by volunteers.

...whom we might use here. Manpower opportunity right there.
They volonteer because they see a need to help people in need,
just like they did helping build Debian.

..and, they are on a deadline.

> You are suggesting that Devuan uses some of its
> precious resources to support something that is probably going to be
> EOL by the time Devuan has it fully up and running.

..temporarily, yes, I believe this will be a worthwhile investment.

> This would take away time from Jessie and Ascii.

..correct in the short term, hopefully not in the long term.

> Which do you think Devuan should support, a dying Debian version or
> the supported Devuan version and its replacement ?

..above all, the volonteers trying to help people stuck there.
I only see my minima "Devuan Wheezy" idea as an upgrade tool
towards Devuan Jessie.

..hopefully as simple as a metapackage for nosystemd-unstable
and debootstrap? Or a flavor?
Basically a Wheezy netboot copy with our stuff thrown in and
handily useful to the volonteers.

> I know which I would vote for, especially as you can upgrade from
> wheezy to Devuan Jessie very easily.

..aye. Now try convince some nervous bean counter on a deadline
it can be done safely so he doesn't get fired for letting his IT
guy try do the right thing.

..chances are we agree when we are done growling. ;o)

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.