On Tue, 29 Aug 2017 14:26:49 +0200
Adam Borowski <kilobyte@???> wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 27, 2017 at 09:14:11PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > I tried ctwm.
> >
> > The package manager installs it like a breeze, but in the tradition
> > of Debian packages, it doesn't work out of the box.
>
> Instead of complaining here, it'd be more productive to talk to the
> package's maintainer:
>

>     Debian QA Group <packages@???>

>
> Oh, wait -- the maintainer is you! (And also your cat and your
> mother in law.). Thus, please submit patches. The package is
> orphaned, so you are allowed to make any sane changes whatsoever (as
> a non-DD, "sane" is defined as "whatever passes uploader's review").
> Drive-by changes are fine.
>
> You may submit the patches to Devuan or Debian, but as this matter is
> not related to systemd, the latter would be greatly better: (still)
> 100-1000 times more users, packages migrate to Devuan anyway. Thus,
> it'd be nice if you could send your proposed changes for review to
> anyone who can upload to Debian (like me for example).

So many interesting things to learn, so little time. I don't know how
to make/patch packages, and could learn a new computer language or a
few new WMDEs in the time learning a package manager would take. So I
do what I can: Submit docs on how to do it right. Anyone's free to turn
that into a package, if they wish.

Also, about dealing with Debian: If they don't let me on their mailing
list, I'm not giving them the time of day.

>
> > First problem: The Debian package forgets to install
> > /usr/share/xsessions/ctwm.desktop, so pressing F1 on the slim login
> > screen doesn't find it. You can't get to ctwmrc using normal
> > methods. Oops.
> >
> > So create the following /usr/share/xsessions/ctwm.desktop :
> [snip]
>
> This looks like an obvious, undebatably good change.
>
> > If you only use a mouse...
> >
> > Trouble is, as it ships from the factory, ctwm is extremely
> > keyboarder hostile. Try it and see: No matter what you do with your
> > keyboard, you need to grab your mouse to fix the focus. Given that
> > most lightweight WMDE users are keyboardists, this is a problem.
> >
> > Or not.
> >
> > Edit ~/.ctwmrc after copying it elsewhere, and add the following
> > lines below the list of simple settings like "NoGrabServer" or
> > "GrabServer", "DecorateTransients", the font assignments, etc, add
> > the following lines:
> >

> > ==================================================
> > UsePPosition "on"       # Help kbd instantiated windows get focus
> > RandomPlacement "on"    # Help kbd instantiated windows get focus
> > AutoFocusToTransients   # Help kbd instantiated windows get focus
> > SaveWorkspaceFocus      # Obviously workspace focus should be
> > retained WindowRing              # Enable Alt+Tab type window
> > circulation WarpRingOnScreen        # Enable Alt+Tab type window
> > circulation ==================================================  

>
> I don't know ctwm (and was greatly relieved as a newbie that I can
> replace that twm thingy with WindowMaker) -- thus, in your opinion,
> is what you propose:
> ᴀ) a default good for everyone
> ʙ) personal preference of a random (if well-meaning) guy?

C: A set of settings good for any keyboard-preferring use who makes
heavy use of dmenu.

>
> If ᴀ, then what about making it work better out of the box?
>
> > Now go below all the Button assignments as well as any hotkey
> > assignments, and add the following:
> >
> > ==================================================
> > # HOTKEY DMENU Ctrl+Shift+;
> > "semicolon" = s | c : all : f.exec "/home/myuid/bin/dmenu_litt.sh"
> >
> > # HOTKEY defops MENU, HIGHEST LEVEL CTWM MENU
> > "comma" = s | c : all : f.menu "defops"
> >
> > # HOTKEY LIST OF ALL MENUS ON ALL WORKSPACES
> > "period" = s | c : all : f.menu "TwmAllWindows"
> >
> > # NOTE! ALT+TAB CANNOT BE MADE TO WORK.
> > # USE Ctrl+Shift+h and Ctrl+Shift+l instead.
> > "h" = s | c : all : f.warpring "prev" # HOTKEY REV THIS WKSPC WINS
> > "l" = s | c : all : f.warpring "next" # HOTKEY FWD THIS WKSPC
> > WINS
> >
> > "u" = s | c : all : f.menu "TwmWindows" # HOTKEY THIS WKSPACE WIN
> > LIST ==================================================
>
> I'd put this into /usr/share/doc/ctwm/examples/ -- unless you believe
> it'd be reasonable to override the current/old upstream default with
> what you propose.

Putting it in examples is a good idea. The upstream default is
reasonable for all mouse all the time types, and so shouldn't
necessarily be replaced.

Also, the choice of hotkeys is purely my choice and would be unpopular
with most people.

>
> > I don't know how resource-conserving ctwm is compared to twm,
> > Openbox and its other competitors, but I believe ctwm can be
> > crafted into a demu-equipped, keyboarder high productivity machine
> > just like Openbox and all the others, while still respecting your
> > machine's resources and not spending them profligately.
>
> I'd dismiss this particular argument. We're not talking about a WM
> which is so bloated to require the machine to have whole 4MB ram and
> thus needs to be trimmed down to run on 2MB. The crummiest
> monitor-capable SoC you can buy today has ~1GB ram, with anything
> real having 2GB in the low-end ARM world and far more everywhere else.

I have no evidence of documentation that ctwm doesn't require more RAM
than KDE. Now I'm pretty darn sure it doesn't, but I don't know how it
compares to others. A brief useage in a Devuan Jessie Qemu VM indicates
to me that ctwm doesn't impact performance.

Then, in my script to run the VM, I set -m 128 instead of -m 1024. Both
ctwm and fvwm popped up almost instantly. LXDE was a little sluggish.
Xfce was a lot sluggish and took a couple seconds to assemble itself.
When I ran firefox with the -m 128 it took down the machine to a black
screen.

I set -m 4128, and Xfce came up twice as fast, and firefox ran
beautifully.

So it looks like ctwm is suitable, resource wise, for any realistic
computer you'll encounter today.



>
> Only a few WMs can be still called "bloated": GNOME (needs a mid-end

There it is folks: The preceding is why we need a new word. Easy trap
to fall into.

s/WMs/WMDEs/

Or change WMs to DEs, and then the whole sentence becomes false.

> GPU to even run, or slooow software emulation otherwise), Cinnamon
> (uses GNOME's backend), maybe some configurations of KDE.

I'd add that Xfce can be a little sluggish.

>
> Choice between everything else should be a matter of ergonomics only:
> you use what is most comfortable for you; micromanaging the last bit
> of resource usage is counterproductive -- it'd be like writing an
> editor in assembly.

For the most part I agree with you. Unless you encounter a low-resource
computer. And I'll add one other thing: Something I've subjectively
come to believe: Full featured computers running one of the very low
resource WMDEs are *extremely* snappy.

Regardless: My limited research tells me someone willing to get under
the hood and configure ctwm can match his computer's ergonomics
*precisely* to his needs.


> But, returning to the original issue: you can't claim that the
> maintainer does a bad job if there's no maintainer.

OK.

> There's also no
> one to step in your way if you'd want to make improvements.

I did make an improvement. My original email told everyone wanting a
dmenu-enabled, keyboard-centric high speed interface how to make it
with ctwm.

SteveT