Our dear golinux pulled her hair off and is on strike. (her words)

So I am sending the contents of the pad of this week's meeting; turns
out this is a lot of work, which I imagine goes somewhat unappreciated.
If someone wants to jump in to organise next one, I'd be glad. Otherwise
I'll try to think about it timely (e.g. sending the email EU's Tuesday
morning).


Not much happened yesterday; in a nutshell:
- As has been the rule this summer, nearly nobody showed up (hence the
lack of eventfulness)
- We did welcome a couple people, we hope stick around (hi there tremon,
blinkdog, and gnu_srsl who followed mostly from IRC)
- There are several things needing better communication towards users
- Users are getting nervous about lack of dev activity (or at least lack
of communication) :).


Next week is the last one of August, it'd be great if things finally
went back to normal.


************
Pad contents
************


Devuan Notes Aug 23/14 2017 @20:30 UTC

Pad is here. Please add notes prior to the meet:
https://pad.dyne.org/code/#/1/edit/P03NCxozgULLEWFiD+ii0w/7VmjTKxq8l5fWk43B6FvnvqX

Other pads relevant to the meet:

Current infrastructure:
https://pad.dyne.org/code/#/1/edit/usQoFADFDsJ9UAFbVm0H7A/FPGyscaoxWTAqqgscT1bw7VA

Build system improvements:
https://pad.dyne.org/code/#/1/edit/nXiySd0FPHvG8pBgGgImxA/aJ87TdwIEWiIk96GZcFwypnb

Present: Centurion, rrq, Evilham, golinux, dimitsos (briefly),
         tremon (observer), blinkdog (observer), gnu_srs (observer)

## golinux
  - Thanks to all the newcomers for joining us!
  - Confusion between jessie-updates and
    jessie-proposed-updates - needs clarification on d.o
  - There are issues relating release names and their stability
      (people get confused, sometimes install wrong things, etc.)
    There are posts of about this on dev1galaxy and irc (golinux)
    * We should make it somehow clearer, one option would be to add on
        d.o a repository equivalence table / branch explanation / ...
     -  Devuan repository        | Debian repository
        Jessie 1.0 (stable)        | Jessie  (old stable)
    ASCII (testing)            | Stretch (stable)
    Beowulf (unstable, coming soon)    | Buster (testing)
    Ceres                 | sid
        Experimental            | Devuan-only packages
                                          (that's not a release.
                                          Jessie-proposed is also devuan
                                          only packages)

    * jaromil . . . At the risk of volunteering Evilham without asking
      first, I would like to suggest that you give him access to update
      the website according to your current method.  He and I work well
      together.  Then you will be relieved of that aggravation and the
      website will benefit for having the most current information.
      Seems like a win/win all around.   (golinux) *
    * I'd be ok with this; may look into replicating the pipeline
      locally at some point before Wednesday, that way a chrooted
      SFTP-only access to update the site would suffice (evilham) *

  - progress on rsyslog?  KatolaZ was going to do further review.
        What's the verdict?

## gnu_srs
  - When will a repository for testing be created (i.e. Buster:Beowulf)
     * I think when amprolla3 is finally in production (golinux)
  - Time to build eudev for unstable, and eventually
    ascii-proposed/ascii?
    * See notes above about releases. ascii is based on a STABLE release
      even though it's not quite stable on devuan.   (golinux)
  - When will util-linux ever build so openrc can be installed without
    privately built packages?
  - What makes maemo so important to support with the Devuan
    infrastructure, It's only for ancient Nokia N900 phones.
    How many of them are still out there?
     * Here's a partial answer.  There are other posts scattered here
       and there with mor information:  (golinux)

https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170614.162030.49f3c95f.en.html
  - KatolaZ: I know you are not present tonight. But, can you possibly
    test your scorsh locally before requesting it to be used in the
    infrastructure chain?
    * It would be nice to compare scorsh and a refactored releasebot in
      action in a testing situation before making a decision.  (golinux)
    * Pretty sure this has been the case already :). (evilham)
  - Debian has the concept of Maintainers as well as Developers and
    e.g. incoming.debian.org for uploaded packages.
    * I think this translates to formalising Devuan's structure(evilham)
  Comments and comparisons with Devuan infrastructure?
  - I'd like to build an iso with the Devuan installer on it for test:
    Any links? Or should I look at how Debian does this?
    * look at this thread especially ozi's posts:
      https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=551
      and also on dng mail list.  Also chat with fsmithred.  (golinux)
  - Are the current access codes: ---:--b really too coarse grained?
    If you can build a package for experimental why not for stable?
    How do Debian solve this?
    (tremon) for Debian, packages are only ever built for unstable or
    stable-proposed-updates... packages then migrate by release manager
    accord to testing or stable, respectively
    (sherdlu) that is a delicious bit of information.  Thanks.
    (evilham) devuan's goal is to have something similar :).
    In the mean time, we need to be able to trust some developers to
    build stuff for unstable / testing, but only a few for stable.
  - What about packages built for sid entering testing after 10 days,
    as for Debian?
    Good Idea, see above (evilham)

## tremon:
  - Maybe something to consider would be to treat "Devuan Jessie" as an
    LTS, and work on ascii to be parallel to debian testing,
    that way we could save some development time and catch up with
    debian quicker.
      * one problem with that is that Buster has already been named as
        Devuan Beowul, so we'd have to skip the ascii release entirely.
        (golinux)
  - dist-upgrade could be an issue; maybe as an exception we could
    require users to perform a fresh install.
  - (Sherdlu) not a good idea, IHMO.  +1 (golinux)
     The ability to upgrade, rather than re-install, is a very
     attractive feature of Debian.
     Especially for production systems, number-crunching servers, etc.
     * no argument there, it is definitely valuable to have (tremon)
  * Nice to see people's inputs here. So, as atractive as this could be,
    for dev; probably not a good idea? (evilham)

## sherdlu
### a constitution
* here's one by Hellekin:

https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/HellekinConstitutionDraft
  * Here's the other one by nextime.  Wasn't easy to find references but
    finally success  (golinux)
    https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/DevuanConstitution
    (Actually it was right there in the wiki index rh column)
  * And this document on decisional structure is informative.
    https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/wikis/DecisionalStructure
  * jaromil - I have never seen the list of VUAs involved with Devuan.
    Are they the owner members here?
    https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-repository-masters/settings/members
    Many of them are unknown to me. At this point in our development, I
    am not comfortable with the draft proposal presented in that
    document giving so much decisional power to unknown individuals.
  * Agree with this; on a related note: those accounts have currently
    all build config / build permissions, some kind of permission
    revocation policy is needed (evilham)

## Evilham
- In order to create better GL comments from ReleaseBot, we can use
this trick to get the build id of a queued job

https://github.com/openstack/python-jenkins/blob/828eb92c481898e574f4729d030a7ea5b850a0d2/jenkins/__init__.py#L473
    It does assume that that's the only job that gets queued between
    calls, so maybe some check has to be added.

## fsmithred
  - It's time to get some ascii isos out there. New people are showing
  up at the forum wanting to install ascii and beyond.
  Some have been especially disappointed when trying to upgrade to ceres
     * Thanks for putting 32 bit one together for me.  :)   (golinux)
  - Observation: If you upgrade to ascii, /lib is still /lib.
    If you install ascii directly by debootstrap or live-sdk,
    then /lib is just a symlink to /usr/lib.
    This may or may not affect you. I got burned by it with
    refractasnapshot. Need to add some /usr/lib/live/ dirs to the
    excludes file.
    (To complement the /lib/live/ lines that are already there.)

## CenturionDan
  - wants people to file bug reports against devuan-releasebot - one for
    each concise issue.
    This should be the done for all of these infrastructure issues and
    wishlist items.
  - has been working on devuan-releasebot test suite with a view to
    resolving the most complained about issues with it.