On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 18:00:12 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message
<20170823180012.327dbdc8@ayu>:

> On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 at 14:22:34 +0200
> Arnt Karlsen <arnt@???> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 23 Aug 2017 09:34:49 +0200, Alessandro wrote in message
> > <b0d97abd-ebeb-5eab-78c2-db089730d043@???>:
> >
> >> On 22/08/2017 at 13:36, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> >>> On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 03:38:50 +0200, Adam wrote in message
> >>> <20170822013850.ute5cf7ycrlvc4rq@???>:
> >>>
> >>>> There are cases when the old way had its merit -- but here, we
> >>>> have an equivalent of a car that needs to be started with a
> >>>> hand-crank.
> >>>
> >>> ..you may have missed "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and
> >>> George Orwell's "1984", or at the very least, the main point of
> >>> these 2 books and your own nation's history, in these Trumpian
> >>> times.
> >>>
> >>> ..an hand-crank car keeps you in control of what's going on around
> >>> you, if you pay attention.
> >>
> >> Why do you think an electric motor cannot do the same?
> >
> > ..straw man, an electric motor cannot do the same without
> > AI taking control away from you.
>
> Please let me know what AI did the Wolkswagen Beetle have?

..never heard of those, I've only seen Volkswagens of various models.

..only thing I'm aware of in mom's 1967 1300 Beetle, is the presence of
2 hand cranks for the windows, the absence of any hand crank for the
motor, and the presence of a tuned 1500 engine block that survived it's
tuner's final test run. Crazy low end and crazy low idle, 60rpm, at
80rpm it could be nursed out of idle with the gas pedal, at 100rpm it
would hesitate for a second before responding to the gas pedal, and at
125rpm, it didn't. ;o)

..everything else other than the block and I suspect the cam shaft,
was stock 1967 1300. Pedal to the metal, and it beat bikes, but it
ran out of breath at high rpms. Give it 1/4 to a 1/3 pedal, and it
would creep up forever. I suspect the cam had a crazy delay on inlet
valve closure, letting the motor "blow back out what it didn't need"
at idle, and "slamming the door behind the inlet charge as it crashed
into the piston crown" as the motor spooled up.
Easy to crank by hand on the dynamo pulley.


..and I can confirm VW Beetles will start to "rotate" at 100knots or
whatever the speed is when the needle points to the oil (or charge?)
lamp to left of the blinky turn light, and produce a nice GA-style
"landing-on-dry-tarmac" chirp if you hit the brakes late enough and
soon enough, or you'll wind up like the tuner.


..having gone from the curious "Hum, how fast _is_ that speed phantom
going, hum, he's still pulling away", I may have matched AI processing
performance going "Hum, why is the steering acting up like aquaplaning
I read about somewhere, and on dry asphalt too? (I was a newbie driver)
Hum, didn't I also read somewhere about Beetles having 5 kilograms of
front axle pressure at 125km/h, and yeah, didn't that 1500 block back
there come from a wreck, and the tuner guy was a VW mechanic and an
experienced driver, so he may have gotten himself into something
similar and reacted like most experienced people advice to do on
aquaplaning, and on dry asphalt, that would flip his ride, hum, let's
try stomp the brakes first, and only then ease away from the ditch..."

..I recall seeing the Beetle move maybe 5 meters as I made up my
mind. :o)

..great enough straw man? ;o)

> >>> Your new shiny AI car may decide to kill you to
> >>> save e.g. "a more worthy person" from something really, really
> >>> bad, e.g. Trumpian embarrasment, e.g. because you pay attention to
> >>> what's going on around you. ;oD
> >>
> >> First off, an electric engine starter does not have to have any
> >> AI built-in. The XX century auto industry proved it.
> >
> > ..and the XXI'st is now disproving it.
>
> Present day technology cannot change the past. Car electric
> starters did not have any AI, they relied completely on the human who
> turned the key to work.

..you never seen Soviet Politburo pictures "evolve"? ;o)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_of_images_in_the_Soviet_Union#Censorship_of_historical_photographs

..similar discoveries can be found on checking e.g. 9/11 stories on WTC
online against pre-9/11 encyclopedia entries on WTC of the kind printed
on paper before W. was "elected" president in 2000 and that can be
found in brick-n-mortar libraries. ;o)

> >>   Secondly, AI is not inherently a user alien technology, no more
> >> that computers are per se a tools against the users.  It all
> >> depends on who is in charge.    

> >
> > ..precisely my point.
>
> Do you intend to live without computers?
> Your choice.

..not really, not a viable long term solution.

> >> As there is software that puts the user in charge (Free/OS
> >> software) and software that deprives the user of any freedom
> >> (proprietary software), so there is AI that just serves users and
> >> AI that controls them.
> >
> > ..e.g. systemd is capable of "getting it done" both ways. ;o)
>
> My home PCs do not have it.

..you missed my "e.g.", and my point. ;o)

> >> If this could not be, then your only option would be forsaking
> >> IT altogether.
> >
> > ..maybe. Eventually, that too will fail, we mere mortals risk
> > getting targeted "as Islamists" for _not_ carrying cell phones:
> > https://theintercept.com/2014/02/10/the-nsas-secret-role/
> > https://theintercept.com/drone-papers/firing-blind/
> > https://theintercept.com/2017/08/21/trump-may-not-survive-his-term-but-the-assassination-complex-will/
>
> I did not read anywhere people without cellphones are/will be
> targeted as islamists, and I fail to understand how you could think
> those articles and the facts they relate have anything to do with AI

..try read them again. ;o)
Slowly, so you can test them against your own beliefs.

..thenafter, chances are you may see part of the quite
likely unlikeable future that I can see coming.

..another totally different question is whether or not
you like what you see coming.

> and car starters.

..not much. And, I see Italian history is quite different from
Polish history, which may be part of the context you miss throwing
around strawmen.

..a skill that helps build useful wisdom:
https://www.highperformancelearning.com/reading-between-the-lines/
https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2010/07/how-to-read-between-the-lines/
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Reading+Between+the+Lines&ia=web

--
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
Scenarios always come in sets of three:
best case, worst case, and just in case.