On 170627-21:47+0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:09:49 +0000, Miroslav wrote in message
> <20170627120949.wyhvph3uxrrpxhtr@gdOv>:
>
> > On 170627-11:06+0200, Arnt Karlsen wrote:
> > > On Fri, 16 Jun 2017 16:56:24 -0400, zap wrote in message
> > > <505f058b-0fe3-16b2-157d-352d4d56b15f@???>:
> > >
> > > > how does one remove that package without removing anything else?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I mean how do you remove it from being depended on by nearly
> > > > every bit of software...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > I want to install openrc so that is why I ask...
> > >
> > > ..there's hope, it would take holding the systemd fanbois
> > > to the same standards as the 'clowns' at grsecurity...
> > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/06/26/linus_torvalds_slams_pure_garbage_from_clowns_at_grsecurity/
> > >
> >
> > Comparing grsecurity to systemd? That's like valuing true gold the
> > same as cellophane.
> >
> > Heads, which is one of the marvelous thing that happened in FOSS
> > lately, and it happened in the Devuan realm of OSes, remains, on top
> > of completely free, secured with grsecurity, and not via the Schmoog
> > underhanded ripoff of grsecurity code...
> >
> > Paid access to test patches
> > https://forums.grsecurity.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4699#p17127
> > (
> > the recent post by Bradley Spengler, spender, the inventor of
> > grsecurity; who is truthful, and together with his anonymous friend
> > who goes by the pseudonym PaX Team, but I strongly believe, judging
> > by communication with them, that he is just one person... actually I
> > also read what spender wrote somewhere to that effect...
> > ...[and together with] PaX Team, they kept fixing the kernel, fixing
> > all the security holes that Mr Linux wouldn't care about, because of
> > his "all bugs are just bugs", security and other, attitude, and
> > worse... In that recent post Bradley Spengler, a developer whom I
> > trust, openly states, and all facts, all that has happened with the
> > code, on that KSPP, serves as confirmation to his words... He openly
> > states:
> > > Google made the choice to engage in underhanded competition against
> > > us with our own code.
> > )
> >
> > ...[Heads remains secured with grsecurity and not via the Schmoog's
> > underhanded ripoff of grsecurity code] which they pay people to,
> > essentially, steal from grsecurity, precisely by means of the KSPP
> > (Kernal Self Protection Project or so)...
> >
> > But [Heads remains secured with grsecurity] via the
> > baton-passed-and-firmly-held and grsecurity code honestly
> > maintained...
> >
> > On grsec and status of heads
> > https://heads.dyne.org/news/2017/04/on-grsec.html
> >
> > which page should be updated with a link to minipli github page...
> > just as the more up-to-date Heads 0.3 announcement says:
> >
> > https://heads.dyne.org/news/2017/06/release-03.html
> > which points at:
> > https://github.com/minipli/linux-unofficial_grsec/
> >
> > ...and so Heads remains secured with grsecurity that appears to me
> > well maintained for kernel 4.9 (but although I may work thoroughly, I
> > work very slowly as well... haven't checked the latest there yet).
> >
> > And Heads is gold, as well as the gold: grsecurity (along with purely
> > free software) that it uses. Systemd is a very-bad ware, it is some
> > spyware-enabler, and other bad things it is, as all poetterware is.
> >
> > Just as Linux governed by the Schmoog, it that is what the future
> > holds for us, will become as intrusion-enabler as the Schmoog's own
> > Chrome is... Secure, yes: secure, but for the stinking Google to be
> > the sole one intruder to whoever uses Chrome/Chromium. Little hacker
> > fish pretty much out, only the shark Schmoog controling you!
> >
> > Danger greater than we think!
> >
> > Linus, the kernel should be taken away from you!
> >
> > You've already tried to give it over to NSA, back when you
> > accomodated for SELinux...
> > (
> > Developer Raps Linux Security
> > http://www.crmbuyer.com/story/39565.html
> > )
> > ...but grsecurity saved us back then! And SELinux is little if any
> > worth by this day...
> >
> > And now you've been giving it over to the Scmoog! Who is going to
> > save us this time when the stinking Google itself has, as, and I'm
> > citing spender again, when the stinking Google has engaged:
> > > in underhanded competition against us with our own code
> > "us" being spender and PaX Team and their few helpers.
> >
> > The kernel should be taken away from under the couple Linus-Schmoog!
> > Great danger there! For your own freedom, tuxian!
> >
> > Not the first time that I'm calling for kernel to be taken away from
> > Linus. See:
> >
> > Why is Gentoo not switching to systemd?
> > https://forums.gentoo.org/viewtopic-t-998108-postdays-0-postorder-asc-start-300.html#7624044
> > where find:
> > > Linus, you sold us all. Kernel should be taken away from you! In
> > > whichever way. Forked, best.
> >
> > And Arnt Karlsen, pls. do not compare grsecurity with systemd. It's
> > as bad as putting a frog next to a horse or a knight next to a
> > traitor and valuing them the same/honoring them with the same respect.
>
> ..by holding people to the same standards, you get to see exactly
> how they earn your respect and/or scorn, and not.
>
> ..but you make an excellent case for forking the kernel, by forking,
> you get to make your own judgement override that of Linus. Etc.
> E.g. because of these: https://lwn.net/Articles/703000/
I had read that before. I stand with *citypw*'s positions on all the affair.
> and
> https://lwn.net/Articles/721883/

No, I couldn't compile anything more complex than my poor bash scripts at
https://github.com/miroR I am still, am I'm afraid I'll remain, at beginner
level in C...

I rely on people like Mathias Krause (whose email wasn't admitted to this list
when he replied to this email of mine:
unoffic-grsec 4.9.27 kernel compile, one last hurdle
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170512.200605.fae6ef31.en.html
( he did reply to the list as well, open attachment:
MathiasKrause-2017-05-12.eml.gz ; ah, the visitors to original location of
lists.dyne.org/lurke/message ... will have to go to my message that should
appear after:
< same title as this email, because this email is a reply to it >
https://www.mail-archive.com/dng@lists.dyne.org/msg15730.html
to find the gzip'd email of Mathias Krause, who maintains the:
https://github.com/minipli/linux-unofficial_grsec/tree/linux-4.9.x-unofficial_grsec
[to find the gzip'd email of Mathias], because on Dyne Devuan Lurker, no
attachments set to show in the web archive...
)

And I hope for people like Parazyd who apply grsec...

> ..googling systemd error messages is how I found out "it wasn't me
> falling behind on too much Groklaw'ing", Theodore Ts'o was having
> similar systemd problems and had to ditch system security to work
> around his problem. IMO, he may have been sabotaged by the systemd
> people.
>
> ..I guess we all here trust his and Linus' judgement on systemd. ;oD
>
>
> --
> ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
> ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
> Scenarios always come in sets of three:
> best case, worst case, and just in case.

The rest is fine... Just, there is no comparison. These are heroes who fought
for our freedom, spender and PaX Team, and those...

And those (the systemd people) are people who... Let me quote
Christopher Barry again, as I occasionally have quoted him:
OT: Open letter to the Linux World
https://lkml.org/lkml/2014/8/12/459
Find:
> He's a f*cking tool (IMHO).
(just I don't use that word, replace the '*' to get it back to be able to find
it.)
And then, a few words on, you find:
> Partially it may well be nefarious and shadowy in nature. With One Ring
> to rule them all, having access to it sure would be sweet for those
> hell-bent on total information awareness.

And those (the systemd people), as well as Google who have done such harm to
GNU/Linux (as they often have done harm to FOSS) with how they by their sly
means provoked the grsecurity to shut down... they are the people who are tools
the ones, the other in control of such tools, and not for public good of any
kind.

I'll see if I can manage to reply to the other emails as well.

I'll try and reply somewhat to the thread that, for some reason, half-split
from this one
(
probably because the header:
"In-Reply-To: <20170627120949.wyhvph3uxrrpxhtr@gdOv>"
of my initial message got for some reason not included...
)
, and starts from:
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20170627.165050.fc63a9f2.en.html
But I can tell you all straight, this is so sad! You guys don't get what
geniuses we, Linux developers testers, users, have kind of, lost... And some of
you play clever talk on the issues that are bike-shedding on the real facts...
Without noticing, or maybe deliberately not wanting to know what is behind all
that went on since SELinux was tried to be introduced, and then grsecurity
came, and fixed it all, but only for those who were willing to, because it
never was accepted by that less capable person then spender and PaX Team, but
who is the person in charge of the kernel...

I'm so sad... You guys appear to not want to understand what this all leads
to...

I'm replying late because I was busy struggling to get my Devuan securely
installed, and what offers currently is not so easy to accomplish:

Air-Gapped Devuan Install, Tentative
https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=746
and at least two more related topics, all linked from there.

It's not disregard the reason I'm replying a little late.

And I read all the replies...
--
Miroslav Rovis
Zagreb, Croatia
https://www.CroatiaFidelis.hr