Quoting Adam Borowski (kilobyte@???):

> Well, have you bothered taking a look?

To be honest, no, not a lot, because I avoid GNOME as well as the rest of
this stuff. The point I was making is that calling the presence of
systemd-logind 'running systemd on a system' is highly misleading.

I don't personally want systemd-logind anywhere near my systems any more
than I want the systemd init, but it reportedly is one of the least
invasive, most self-contained, most modular things that tribe have so
far produced.

But I mostly reacted to the rhetorical overload of calling that 'running
systemd on a system'. Because it's just not.

Tell you what, though: If you want to seriously allege that, I'm happy
to just agree to disagree. Deal?


> You mean that GNOME which is Debian's default on amd64 and i386 (ie,
> architectures used by 98.968% of popcon submissions) and XFCE which is
> default on the rest of Debian and all archs of Devuan?

Yep, that selfsame one. In the pockmarked flesh.

I've said before, and I'll repeat now, that IMO instead of fighting over
systemd, the Debian Project _should_ have responded to the crisis
created by ConsoleKit becoming moldy by pitching GNOME into the dustbin,
and good riddance. (Of course, they didn't ask my opinion, and there's
no special reason why they'd care.)

(The point recently raised that GNOME alone has suitable facilities to
help the disabled is a valid one -- which I'll take as true. I
hadn't known that, so thanks to whoever posted it.)

In favour of what? Personally, I like _no_ DE. For DEs, surveying the
landscape in 2012-3, I'd have recommended LXDE or Enlightenment E17.
Since then, LXDE has been (recently) pitched because the developers
realised gtk+ 3.x is terrible (something the GNOME, Unity, MATE,
Cinnamon, Unity, etc. people apparently still haven't realised) and
its replacement LXQt is a bit raw but promising.

> Some die-hard folks will stick with fvwm they used in 1994 or
> WindowMaker from 1998 (neither appears to have improved since)....

Oh, you mean mature and stable. But you sure spelled that funny. ;->

> As a x32 porter, an arch whose main schtick is memory saving over amd64
> (and speed over i386), I can tell you this: while you can use hundreds of
> servers at once, you still use only a single GUI at a time, and switch among
> no more than a few GUI systems. Thus, while optimizing servers (that run in
> kvm/vserver/lxc/...) is a worthwhile effort, trimming GUIs beyond a "good
> enough" level is a pure waste of time.

Erroneous assumption that RAM/CPU wastage is the only reason to eschew DEs,
noted in passing.

> Thus, we _need_ to make mainstream desktop environments work....

Non-sequitur conclusion noted in passing.

> [1]. According to the systemd package maintainers.

Oh, and the devoutly reliable Mr. Poettering would _never_ shade the
truth, right? I see.