On Sat, 16 Jul 2016 02:12:01 -0700
Rick Moen <rick@???> wrote:

> Quoting Simon Hobson (linux@???):
>
> > Rick Moen <rick@???> wrote:
> >
> > > 'Doing' something that is functionally indistinguishable from
> > > doing nothing. And a '000' rights mask would be fully effective
> > > paranoia insurance.
> >
> > Present tense and gaffer tape. Of course, any libsystemd package
> > update will rip that gaffer tape off so it's one more thing to keep
> > checking/fixing on an ongoing basis.
>
> Well, Works for Me.{tm}

That's precisely the point. Due to your needs, your situation, your
beliefs, and your skillset, de-systemd'ed Debian works for you. Nobody
said you shouldn't use it. Nobody said you should use Devuan or
contribute to Devuan. Debian with the magic sauce packagemanager-foo
works for you, end of story.

Due to my needs, my situation, my beliefs, and my skillset, an OS from
the Debian project doesn't work for me. I've said why about 15 times on
two mailing lists. For *me*, what works is the Devuan fork. So for me,
the situation merited a fork.

>
> I've only been a senior system administrator for a few decades, so
> it's possible that you know this subject a lot better.
>
> If you're worried about the... um... ongoing threat of the... um...
> non-function of a library between cron runs, you could set chattr +i
> in addition.

If my interpretation of your preceding paragraph is right, the tone of
your preceding paragraph indicates skepticism on your part that the
Debian project will keep changing things such that to keep my box
systemd free I keep having to change my packagemanager-foo. This is the
difference between you an me: I believe such changes to be the more
likely scenario. We'll both know for sure in two or three years, and
no, I'm not going to make a monetary bet.

But even if you were totally right and I were whack-job paranoid, that
doesn't make Devuan any less right for me. There are many use cases in
this world, and in some of them, Devuan fits the bill much better than
packagemanager-foo'ed Debian.

[snip]

>
> > Can you, with crystal ball, 100% guarantee that something like
> > libsystemd won't get "feature enhanced" at some point ?
>
> Can you, with crystal ball, 100% guarantee that I won't deal with my
> system to effectively apply local policy using regular open source
> practices? I've done it for only a couple of decades on Linux, so
> it's probably just a total fluke that I've gotten away with it so far.

Your preceding paragraph, and the one it responds to, precisely make my
point. In the absence of guarantees, each of us picks what he thinks
most likely to succeed. Naturally, different people pick different
things. That doesn't make anybody wrong.

[snip]

> You seem to be big on high-drama, apocalyptic predictions.

OK, so am I. So are a lot of people. So I (and they) choose Devuan.

Two more things...

First, your packagemanager-foo is cool. I didn't think it possible.
It's a real boon for people hating systemd but not willing to switch
away from Debian, as well as people who agree with you that it will
always be possible to extricate systemd from Debian with the proper
package manager maneuvers. The more escapes from systemd, the better.

Second, I don't pick a distro exclusively for technological reasons,
and Devuan wasn't created exclusively for technological reasons. Read
https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20141127.212941.f55acc3a.en.html ,
which to me is Devuan's Declaration of Independence. Read the paragraph
starting with "The problem is obviously not just technical" and the
paragraph after it.

For me, with my use case, the situation merited a fork and nothing less.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
     of the Successful Technologist
http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques