Pablo I appreciate your optimism,im working on and think about hacking the
system everyday. I actually have a solid concept of how subverting the
prevailing order could be achieved but it involves programming skills I
dont process. Are most people on this list hackers/programmers?
On Jul 12, 2016 11:22 AM, "Pablo" <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
> If by "the system" you mean dealing with another human beings then you're
> right, you would probably need to negotiate with others if you want a piece
> of the cake, because the whole cake was already sold centuries ago. If
> instead you mean "under exploitative conditions" that's another story,
> there are many ways to bootstrap some wealth starting off with very little.
>
> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 8:10 PM, Penny Gaff <pennygaffgallery@???>
> wrote:
>
>> Not everyone can own a business for obvious reasons, there isnt an inch
>> of the globe or "forest"you could live in without being harassed for
>> trespassing, and buying a plot of land again requires participating in the
>> system. There Is No choice and this is why anarchy and capitalism are
>> impossible to conflate in any accurate sense.
>> On Jul 12, 2016 10:25 AM, "Penny Gaff" <pennygaffgallery@???>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The fact is "voluntary hierarchies" dont exist for the majority of the
>>> labour force stuggling for subsistence. Your suggestions to "opt out" are
>>> unrealistic. There is no choice but to participate in the system.
>>> I never understand the distinction between "private property" and
>>> "personal property". Take away the lunch or wallet of any die-hard
>>> communist, they will fight against it as much as a capitalist.
>>>
>>> Anything that can be used as personal property, can also be used for
>>> profit. Your home coffee machine is a consumer good. Open up a coffee shop
>>> and it is now a "means of production". In real life, there is no valid line
>>> between personal property and private property, or a consumer good or a
>>> means of production. If I'm using my computer to watch movies online, then
>>> it is a consumer good. If I use it to build web sites and get paid, it is
>>> my "means of production". If I hire a freelancer on upwork for graphic
>>> design, now am I a "capitalist exploiting worker"?
>>>
>>> Capitalists oppressing workers is based on long debunked theory of
>>> "labor theory of value".
>>>
>>> Labor has no inherent value. You can dig a hole in the ground half a
>>> day, then fill it back the rest of the day, and will have worked hard, but
>>> will have achieved nothing of value.
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ttbj6LAu0A
>>>
>>> I have no problem with voluntary hierarchies. Some employee joining a
>>> company in a voluntary way. I have a problem with top-to-bottom enforced
>>> violent hierarchies.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Penny Gaff <pennygaffgallery@???
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> hmm im afraid Capitalism isnt voluntary except in the myopic sense
>>>> suggested above. Either you participate in capitalism or starve, this is
>>>> not a choice. Profit, the foundation of capitalism, is inherently
>>>> exploitative. Extracting surplus value from labour is exploitation. Where
>>>> ever there is exploitation there is by definition hierarchy.
>>>>
>>>> The problem here I think is the definition of anarchy. It seems venture
>>>> capitalists have hijacked the term as a synonym for "free" as in "free
>>>> market" which unless you are a business tycoon has nothing to do with
>>>> freedom
>>>>
>>>> _____"Penny and Pablo, does your view of Anarchy have some sort of
>>>> property rights? If you and your entire family travel to visit family for
>>>> a month do you still have a claim to your home when you return? " _____
>>>>
>>>> tough question about property ownership. I think it is worth examining
>>>> whether someone would want to occupy a property that is clearly someone
>>>> elses "home" just beacuse it lies empty for a month. Its not really my
>>>> perception of ownership that validates the ownership rather others who
>>>> respect the fact me andmy family have lovingly tended,maintained and
>>>> improved a place with heart and soul, so the place becomes sacred and the
>>>> family become indigenous to it, signifying "ownership".
>>>>
>>>> Esentially private property is problematic and needs rethinking,
>>>> private property isnot to be confused with personal property as in
>>>> pocessions which is a different matter and perfectly acceptable in my view.
>>>> I think the definition of capitalism here is the problem. One side
>>>> seems to think the capitalism in the term means it's a top down systemic
>>>> economic system that is about hierarchies where socialism is about flat
>>>> structures.
>>>>
>>>> While the other side is referring to capitalism as if it refers to a
>>>> bottom up system based on 1 to 1, voluntary free market interactions where
>>>> each side will only trade if they perceive it to be in their best interest.
>>>> The "anarchy" refers to a lack of monopolistic hierarchies who could force
>>>> one-sided trades to happen. Lacking force a trade cannot happen when one
>>>> party perceives themselves to be worse off from trading than if they had
>>>> not traded)
>>>>
>>>> I think most self identifying anarcho-capitalists are using the term in
>>>> the latter sense while the people saying they don't make sense are thinking
>>>> in terms of the former. Perhaps this is the disconnect?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Penny and Pablo, does your view of Anarchy have some sort of property
>>>> rights? If you and your entire family travel to visit family for a month
>>>> do you still have a claim to your home when you return?
>>>>
>>>> Adam B. Levine
>>>> Editor-in-Chief
>>>> The Let's Talk Bitcoin! <http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/> Show
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Penny Gaff <
>>>> pennygaffgallery@???> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anarcho-capitalism is surely an oxymoron. Anarchy operates without
>>>>> hierarchy, capitalism is fundamentally based on hierarchy. So how can the
>>>>> two possibly be conflated?
>>>>> On Jul 11, 2016 7:44 PM, "psy" <epsylon@???> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Amir:
>>>>>> > Pablo, you made a good outline for a general anarchist theory which
>>>>>> > still needs some development because it leaves out a path for
>>>>>> creating
>>>>>> > this society from our current context. Bookchin has very strong
>>>>>> > arguments for a sort of federal democracy by creating civil society
>>>>>> > movements that take political power through local municipalities. In
>>>>>> > Catalonia for instance, there's an anarchist cooperative we work
>>>>>> with
>>>>>> > called the CIC (http://cooperativa.cat) organizing small local
>>>>>> > businesses and cooperatives to evade the economic system through
>>>>>> > economic disobedience, such as using the law to avoid paying tax
>>>>>> (like
>>>>>> > the big corporations do). The Kurdish movements in Turkey switched
>>>>>> from
>>>>>> > a struggle for de jure independence to a struggle for de facto
>>>>>> > independence heavily influenced by Bookchin's ideas of libertarian
>>>>>> > municipalism.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Bookchin's ideas are refreshing because they point to a real path to
>>>>>> > political power that is actually very contemporary and being
>>>>>> employed by
>>>>>> > anarchist groups in multiple places. Combined with free market
>>>>>> mutualist
>>>>>> > or syndicalist ideas which give a path to economic power, and we
>>>>>> have a
>>>>>> > solution for strong thriving anarchist societies. The key is civil
>>>>>> > society development and this is where the postmodernists like
>>>>>> Nietzsche
>>>>>> > or Foucault have a massive contribution that point to big flaws in
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > fabric of our moral systems that are life-denying and the
>>>>>> propensity for
>>>>>> > lying through rationalist positivism (which makes Objectivism look
>>>>>> > ridiculous). Philosophy influences scientific development and
>>>>>> rational
>>>>>> > truth- words like central planning, command and control economy,
>>>>>> and ...
>>>>>> > are old fashioned today. Instead we're more likely to use words like
>>>>>> > tipping point, butterfly effect, ...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Ours is an age of movement, uncertainty and transition. By necessity
>>>>>> > anarchism has to change with the times. It feels that this age of
>>>>>> > materialist Marxism has tainted anarchist thought since Proudhon,
>>>>>> making
>>>>>> > anarchism anachronistic and dogmatic at times. That's not to say
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> > anarcho-communism has nothing valuable to offer. The liberating
>>>>>> thing
>>>>>> > about anarchism is that every strain of anarchism (even
>>>>>> > anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism) tells us new interesting
>>>>>> > things, and offers up new strategies and tactics for fighting
>>>>>> > authoritarianism.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > By saying you are a proponent of anarcho-communism or
>>>>>> anarcho-capitalism
>>>>>> > means you believe that questions of class and economy are the most
>>>>>> > important issues- not our ethics, how we administrate and govern,
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> > relations between people and culture. However one philosophy gives
>>>>>> us a
>>>>>> > history of experience for organizing economically. The original
>>>>>> > criticism of capitalism emerged from Proudhon, the
>>>>>> anarcho-syndicalist
>>>>>> > and first person to call themselves an anarchist.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The other philosophy gives us practical tools like Bitcoin, smart
>>>>>> > contracts and agorism. It also teaches us about economics and the
>>>>>> > destructive role played by central banks and corrupt government
>>>>>> > intervention in the economy. These are all useful, valuable ideas
>>>>>> and we
>>>>>> > should not reject ideas completely without studying them all first,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>> > then you deciding what to take, and what to leave.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> +1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Really nice explained mentioning Bookchin as a point to start.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We can also talk about some opposite views: Freud.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> His theories are directly related with individualism ("I", "super-I",
>>>>>> etc..) which are intrinsically related, from a humanistic point of
>>>>>> view,
>>>>>> with capitalism methods.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nietzsche... +1
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about capitalistic dogma: "More Benefit for Less Cost"?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Can an "anarcho-capitalist" tell me that follows that doctrine by
>>>>>> using
>>>>>> contemporary market to engage anarchism?.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Aren't they hidden "neoliberalism"?. For that to read
>>>>>> "anarcho-capitalism" for me sounds confusing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be pragmatic doesn't means to be individualistic. Collaborative
>>>>>> pragmatism is a powerful tool. And capitalism, almost as I am
>>>>>> realizing
>>>>>> it, trying to be as most objetivist as possible, is fundamentally
>>>>>> based
>>>>>> on forgive problems derived by manufacture, such as plastics, CO2
>>>>>> emissions, etc, but also slavery processes on "third development"
>>>>>> countries like de-localization, tax evasions, etc...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think it is really easy to talk about "anarcho-capitalism" from a
>>>>>> social classes point of view. Mostly if you are on the Occident part
>>>>>> because capitalism has indeed "bourgeoisie".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What about "anarcho-bourgeoisie"?.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Maybe "anarcho-capitalists" are confused with "anarcho-bourgeoisie"
>>>>>> which is more related with Marx's anarchists doctrines...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > psy:
>>>>>> >> You will cannot practice never anarchism by using capitalism.
>>>>>> >> You always will be subjugated to market rules which are really
>>>>>> >> anti-socials.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > That's a very dogmatic thing to say. How do you feel about projects
>>>>>> > organized by the Catalan cooperative which are using the free
>>>>>> market to
>>>>>> > support socialist projects. Are they not practicing anarchism
>>>>>> because
>>>>>> > they are using capitalism?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Well. I am agree with an interventionist market in which products and
>>>>>> services are directly related with the ecological/human problems they
>>>>>> cause to be made. Before and after consume them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am not agree with "free" market rules. Almost, with actual
>>>>>> neo-market
>>>>>> doctrine based at offer/demand. I am agree with engage nature/humanity
>>>>>> more up than "tagged projects", etc. So social/cooperative individuals
>>>>>> greater than social technocracies.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For that I on the way of that Catalan cooperative ideas. I just only
>>>>>> remarking that needs more next steps to be done. And that is not
>>>>>> "anarcho-capitalism" what they are trying.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > If you like cooperatives, then you are supporting non-authoritarian
>>>>>> > socialism.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Even mutualism. +1.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> > Nietzsche teaches us that we can create our own moral systems.
>>>>>> There is
>>>>>> > nothing authoritative or intrinsically right. Just societies and
>>>>>> values.
>>>>>> > And this is where it gets exciting- the Kurds are postmodernists.
>>>>>> When
>>>>>> > you say this or that isn't anarchism remember Wikipedia:
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > "Anarchism draws on many currents of thought and strategy. Anarchism
>>>>>> > does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular
>>>>>> world
>>>>>> > view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy."
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > "Many types and traditions of anarchism exist, not all of which are
>>>>>> > mutually exclusive."
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Different strategies and tactics from different schools of
>>>>>> anarchism can
>>>>>> > be used side by side, and mixed together in different ways to
>>>>>> create new
>>>>>> > societies with different values. Anarchism is far too rich to
>>>>>> reduce it
>>>>>> > down to a single school or even reject recognized schools in their
>>>>>> entirety.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Totally agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I just putting in context what "anarcho-capitalism" is giving to that
>>>>>> theories/practices.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By the moment, I cannot see any good one to follow it at the point to
>>>>>> self-tag me as: "an anarcho-capitalist".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>
>
::
Re: [unSYSTEM] Anonymous - Official…
