I never understand the distinction between "private property" and "personal
property". Take away the lunch or wallet of any die-hard communist, they
will fight against it as much as a capitalist.

Anything that can be used as personal property, can also be used for
profit. Your home coffee machine is a consumer good. Open up a coffee shop
and it is now a "means of production". In real life, there is no valid line
between personal property and private property, or a consumer good or a
means of production. If I'm using my computer to watch movies online, then
it is a consumer good. If I use it to build web sites and get paid, it is
my "means of production". If I hire a freelancer on upwork for graphic
design, now am I a "capitalist exploiting worker"?

Capitalists oppressing workers is based on long debunked theory of "labor
theory of value".

Labor has no inherent value. You can dig a hole in the ground half a day,
then fill it back the rest of the day, and will have worked hard, but will
have achieved nothing of value.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ttbj6LAu0A

I have no problem with voluntary hierarchies. Some employee joining a
company in a voluntary way. I have a problem with top-to-bottom enforced
violent hierarchies.

On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 11:02 AM, Penny Gaff <pennygaffgallery@???>
wrote:

> hmm im afraid Capitalism isnt voluntary except in the myopic sense
> suggested above. Either you participate in capitalism or starve, this is
> not a choice. Profit, the foundation of capitalism, is inherently
> exploitative. Extracting surplus value from labour is exploitation. Where
> ever there is exploitation there is by definition hierarchy.
>
> The problem here I think is the definition of anarchy. It seems venture
> capitalists have hijacked the term as a synonym for "free" as in "free
> market" which unless you are a business tycoon has nothing to do with
> freedom
>
> _____"Penny and Pablo, does your view of Anarchy have some sort of
> property rights? If you and your entire family travel to visit family for
> a month do you still have a claim to your home when you return? " _____
>
> tough question about property ownership. I think it is worth examining
> whether someone would want to occupy a property that is clearly someone
> elses "home" just beacuse it lies empty for a month. Its not really my
> perception of ownership that validates the ownership rather others who
> respect the fact me andmy family have lovingly tended,maintained and
> improved a place with heart and soul, so the place becomes sacred and the
> family become indigenous to it, signifying "ownership".
>

> Esentially private property is problematic and needs rethinking, private
> property isnot to be confused with personal property as in pocessions which
> is a different matter and perfectly acceptable in my view.
> I think the definition of capitalism here is the problem.    One side
> seems to think the capitalism in the term means it's a top down systemic
> economic system that is about hierarchies where socialism is about flat
> structures.

>
> While the other side is referring to capitalism as if it refers to a
> bottom up system based on 1 to 1, voluntary free market interactions where
> each side will only trade if they perceive it to be in their best interest.
> The "anarchy" refers to a lack of monopolistic hierarchies who could force
> one-sided trades to happen. Lacking force a trade cannot happen when one
> party perceives themselves to be worse off from trading than if they had
> not traded)
>
> I think most self identifying anarcho-capitalists are using the term in
> the latter sense while the people saying they don't make sense are thinking
> in terms of the former. Perhaps this is the disconnect?
>
>
> Penny and Pablo, does your view of Anarchy have some sort of property
> rights? If you and your entire family travel to visit family for a month
> do you still have a claim to your home when you return?
>
> Adam B. Levine
> Editor-in-Chief
> The Let's Talk Bitcoin! <http://www.letstalkbitcoin.com/> Show
>
> On Tue, Jul 12, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Penny Gaff <pennygaffgallery@???>
> wrote:
>
>> Anarcho-capitalism is surely an oxymoron. Anarchy operates without
>> hierarchy, capitalism is fundamentally based on hierarchy. So how can the
>> two possibly be conflated?
>> On Jul 11, 2016 7:44 PM, "psy" <epsylon@???> wrote:
>>
>>> Amir:
>>> > Pablo, you made a good outline for a general anarchist theory which
>>> > still needs some development because it leaves out a path for creating
>>> > this society from our current context. Bookchin has very strong
>>> > arguments for a sort of federal democracy by creating civil society
>>> > movements that take political power through local municipalities. In
>>> > Catalonia for instance, there's an anarchist cooperative we work with
>>> > called the CIC (http://cooperativa.cat) organizing small local
>>> > businesses and cooperatives to evade the economic system through
>>> > economic disobedience, such as using the law to avoid paying tax (like
>>> > the big corporations do). The Kurdish movements in Turkey switched from
>>> > a struggle for de jure independence to a struggle for de facto
>>> > independence heavily influenced by Bookchin's ideas of libertarian
>>> > municipalism.
>>> >
>>> > Bookchin's ideas are refreshing because they point to a real path to
>>> > political power that is actually very contemporary and being employed
>>> by
>>> > anarchist groups in multiple places. Combined with free market
>>> mutualist
>>> > or syndicalist ideas which give a path to economic power, and we have a
>>> > solution for strong thriving anarchist societies. The key is civil
>>> > society development and this is where the postmodernists like Nietzsche
>>> > or Foucault have a massive contribution that point to big flaws in the
>>> > fabric of our moral systems that are life-denying and the propensity
>>> for
>>> > lying through rationalist positivism (which makes Objectivism look
>>> > ridiculous). Philosophy influences scientific development and rational
>>> > truth- words like central planning, command and control economy, and
>>> ...
>>> > are old fashioned today. Instead we're more likely to use words like
>>> > tipping point, butterfly effect, ...
>>> >
>>> > Ours is an age of movement, uncertainty and transition. By necessity
>>> > anarchism has to change with the times. It feels that this age of
>>> > materialist Marxism has tainted anarchist thought since Proudhon,
>>> making
>>> > anarchism anachronistic and dogmatic at times. That's not to say that
>>> > anarcho-communism has nothing valuable to offer. The liberating thing
>>> > about anarchism is that every strain of anarchism (even
>>> > anarcho-communism and anarcho-capitalism) tells us new interesting
>>> > things, and offers up new strategies and tactics for fighting
>>> > authoritarianism.
>>> >
>>> > By saying you are a proponent of anarcho-communism or
>>> anarcho-capitalism
>>> > means you believe that questions of class and economy are the most
>>> > important issues- not our ethics, how we administrate and govern, the
>>> > relations between people and culture. However one philosophy gives us a
>>> > history of experience for organizing economically. The original
>>> > criticism of capitalism emerged from Proudhon, the anarcho-syndicalist
>>> > and first person to call themselves an anarchist.
>>> >
>>> > The other philosophy gives us practical tools like Bitcoin, smart
>>> > contracts and agorism. It also teaches us about economics and the
>>> > destructive role played by central banks and corrupt government
>>> > intervention in the economy. These are all useful, valuable ideas and
>>> we
>>> > should not reject ideas completely without studying them all first, and
>>> > then you deciding what to take, and what to leave.
>>>
>>> +1.
>>>
>>> Really nice explained mentioning Bookchin as a point to start.
>>>
>>> We can also talk about some opposite views: Freud.
>>>
>>> His theories are directly related with individualism ("I", "super-I",
>>> etc..) which are intrinsically related, from a humanistic point of view,
>>> with capitalism methods.
>>>
>>> Nietzsche... +1
>>>
>>> What about capitalistic dogma: "More Benefit for Less Cost"?
>>>
>>> Can an "anarcho-capitalist" tell me that follows that doctrine by using
>>> contemporary market to engage anarchism?.
>>>
>>> Aren't they hidden "neoliberalism"?. For that to read
>>> "anarcho-capitalism" for me sounds confusing.
>>>
>>> To be pragmatic doesn't means to be individualistic. Collaborative
>>> pragmatism is a powerful tool. And capitalism, almost as I am realizing
>>> it, trying to be as most objetivist as possible, is fundamentally based
>>> on forgive problems derived by manufacture, such as plastics, CO2
>>> emissions, etc, but also slavery processes on "third development"
>>> countries like de-localization, tax evasions, etc...
>>>
>>> I think it is really easy to talk about "anarcho-capitalism" from a
>>> social classes point of view. Mostly if you are on the Occident part
>>> because capitalism has indeed "bourgeoisie".
>>>
>>> What about "anarcho-bourgeoisie"?.
>>>
>>> Maybe "anarcho-capitalists" are confused with "anarcho-bourgeoisie"
>>> which is more related with Marx's anarchists doctrines...
>>>
>>> > psy:
>>> >> You will cannot practice never anarchism by using capitalism.
>>> >> You always will be subjugated to market rules which are really
>>> >> anti-socials.
>>> >
>>> > That's a very dogmatic thing to say. How do you feel about projects
>>> > organized by the Catalan cooperative which are using the free market to
>>> > support socialist projects. Are they not practicing anarchism because
>>> > they are using capitalism?
>>>
>>> Well. I am agree with an interventionist market in which products and
>>> services are directly related with the ecological/human problems they
>>> cause to be made. Before and after consume them.
>>>
>>> I am not agree with "free" market rules. Almost, with actual neo-market
>>> doctrine based at offer/demand. I am agree with engage nature/humanity
>>> more up than "tagged projects", etc. So social/cooperative individuals
>>> greater than social technocracies.
>>>
>>> For that I on the way of that Catalan cooperative ideas. I just only
>>> remarking that needs more next steps to be done. And that is not
>>> "anarcho-capitalism" what they are trying.
>>>
>>> > If you like cooperatives, then you are supporting non-authoritarian
>>> > socialism.
>>>
>>> Even mutualism. +1.
>>>
>>> > Nietzsche teaches us that we can create our own moral systems. There is
>>> > nothing authoritative or intrinsically right. Just societies and
>>> values.
>>> > And this is where it gets exciting- the Kurds are postmodernists. When
>>> > you say this or that isn't anarchism remember Wikipedia:
>>> >
>>> > "Anarchism draws on many currents of thought and strategy. Anarchism
>>> > does not offer a fixed body of doctrine from a single particular world
>>> > view, instead fluxing and flowing as a philosophy."
>>> >
>>> > "Many types and traditions of anarchism exist, not all of which are
>>> > mutually exclusive."
>>> >
>>> > Different strategies and tactics from different schools of anarchism
>>> can
>>> > be used side by side, and mixed together in different ways to create
>>> new
>>> > societies with different values. Anarchism is far too rich to reduce it
>>> > down to a single school or even reject recognized schools in their
>>> entirety.
>>>
>>> Totally agree.
>>>
>>> I just putting in context what "anarcho-capitalism" is giving to that
>>> theories/practices.
>>>
>>> By the moment, I cannot see any good one to follow it at the point to
>>> self-tag me as: "an anarcho-capitalist".
>>>
>>>
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