Hi,

The current strategy looks very tentatively similar to how a bully
behaves when they repeatedly fail to visibly persecute (control) their
victims. Making architectural decisions that clearly break other
utilities that work to force users to use systemd is nothing less that
a wild cry from frustration.

In this situation, it is interesting to ask what will the next move
be. What can they do worse than breaking functional user utilities? Do
they have more strategies in store? One strategy would be to deny
server access to anyone not using systemd. This would force Devuan to
set up an entirely independent infrastructure. I think, this may do
some serious disruption: be prepared as Devuan is not yet totally
divorced from Debian.

Long Life Choice!

Edward

On 08/06/2016, Simon Walter <simon@???> wrote:
> On 06/08/2016 07:49 PM, KatolaZ wrote:
>> [sorry for the long reply]
>
> Very well put.
>
>>
>> Killing all the processes at logout should be easily doable using
>> cgroups (which existed much before Poettering got his bachelor
>> degree), and is indeed easily doable with screen, nohup, and hundred
>> of similar amenities. Those *mechanisms* exist already, and new ones
>> can and should be introduced as needed, to complement the existing
>> ones, so that they can be combined in thousands of different new ways,
>> to serve the needs of different and emerging use cases. But it is not
>> possible to enforce the policy "all the processes that want to survive
>> have to use a precise mechanism", which in the meanwhile breaks
>> backward compatibility with other mechanisms and other policies. This
>> is not innovation. This is just breaking things for the sake of it.
>>
>
> IMHO, systemd should probably be called gnomed and then employ all the
> well known, well documented APIs of the system(s if it is to be useful
> on other OS that Gnome might run on) to do it's thing.
>
> By not employing those existing mechanisms, the authors of systemd are
> guilty of moving Linux systems farther away from POSIX and Unix then
> they already are. Linux might not be a true Unix for a few reasons, but
> those reasons have been deliberated over and there is no need to be in a
> hurry to break things. If it were not for projects like Devuan, Linux
> may really become something a Unix user cannot use comfortably and/or
> fluently. I should not have to learn to drive again just because the
> engine of a car has become more efficient. To the business man, it might
> make sense to put forth this excuse, because he gets to rip you off, but
> to the rest of us it is what is called sh177y engineering.
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