Pablo:
> Having a moral code, like being altruist, is just another survival
> strategy, most likely to increase the survival of a group in expense of
> each individual.

Is not just a moral code, is a more efficient survival strategy. More
rational. Individuals are weak than groups. That's an evidence.

Maybe you can be a totalitarian individual from 12 to 70 years old but,
what will happen when your bio-system starts to fail?.

Because of that humans try social relationships. They try to
distribute/accumulate resources when they are optimal but they have fear
to die as individuals. This is not a problem for sociopaths who rule the
world because they have access to manage them. Is a problem for the rest
who lets them the privilege of manage community resources. Probably an
ant is more honest on that way.

The problem is that the humans doesn't creates that groups based on
specie evolve which is more than altruism. Is a group to have all groups
together with a moral unique based idea that can be 'freedom' or 'peace'
or just survive on multiverse.

> The rest is just mythology, cultural baggage based on
> faulty logic.

I understand you, but I am not agree at all.

> You say that 'richer' is not X but Y or 'excessive' is Z,
> that only holds true in relation to some initial state or final purpose,
> those are far from being objective terms and are only useful as political
> tools.

Because talking here we are making at some point politics. But you can
imagine a real scenario. Try to make an inventory of needs for your way
of life and ask to your 'ants' metaphor to make another to compare it.

Who is being more efficient as specie?. For who is less expensive to
evolve?.

> About ants, they in fact do build and use tools, modify and exploit
> their environment much more than other organisms

I have in mind a thousand of organisms much more efficient than ants.
Bacterias as example. Even wolfs. But I like your methapor to talk about
it because they have a good reputation as 'workers'.

Look, some ants can die by itselfs if they enter on a bucle generated by
some electromagnetic energy fields. They enter on a kind of "death
circle" and they cannot go out of it (capitalism?). And this bug is
produced because they are following a bio-chemical patern that they
cannot change. You as human and because of rationalism have more choices
against that situations. Yes, a lot of humans will fail but not others.

> which are (individually
> speaking) way more complex.

Is just chemical bioelectric I/O networks. Complex but not more than
humans because they introduce some more variable factors such as the
ability to decide and wrong for himselfs.

What about Queen?. Ants are using a "class system" to manage their
community. Are you agree with that?.

Do you know how cruel life is for some low level ants to survive with
their chemical slavery?. Take a look at all the tasks they perform and
if you want to talk about what you think a rational being on the worst.

Do you want to life just to sperm being eating by worms after it?.
Hehehe. Is just a joke example but some humans looks like they are using
that as the unique 'Därma' possible. ;-)

Things arround are more complex than our senses development.

> Humans do show some 'rational' behaviour (like
> many other animals) but that doesn't mean the human mind is in it's
> entirety rational,

Eating, drinking, breathing and thinking... shit, probably humans are
not as rational as they should be, I am agree with that but also I think
that this can be changed just using brain properly.

> I think superstition and irrationality instead of logic
> is what most humans use to take most decisions every day.

And that's our best tool. Individuals can make little changes for a
better collective evolve. What's the difference between to have an idea
sleeping or to talk with a god?. Irrationality allows you to survive.
Remember your heart. You cannot stop it...

> 2016-01-27 1:47 GMT+01:00 psy <epsylon@???>:
>
>> If not pessimism but realism then we should talk about relativism.
>>
>> However, we can effectively summarize the moral fact greed; "excessive
>> desire for money, power or wealth".
>>
>> I agree that it may be a natural act of survival. A strategy of the mind
>> to manipulate others and obtain resources, regardless of moral laws.
>> Although it could be treated as a disease of the mind. However, ethics
>> and moral thoughts warn; "It is not richer who has more, but who needs
>> less". Greediness cannot be rational...
>>
>> Therefore, in addition to relativity, you will agree with me that all
>> depends on the prism through which you look. The greed displayed in an
>> electronic currency is just one of its sides. Perhaps it can counteract
>> with others such as solidarity.
>>
>> Anyway, compare rational human being with an ant is not a scale, say,
>> acceptable. Unlike ants, humans can create tools using mind to not have
>> to use 'weak' body. But as a rational animal, you also can decide to do
>> or not what nature tells you to do. Therein lies the strength of the
>> species. You can refuse to do everything your genetic asks.
>>
>> So if greed is natural, you can change that for example using
>> rationality. Because from rational thought any accumulation strategy has
>> its limits. For example in space parameters, maintenance, etc. And the
>> greedy people do not know or measure is not aware of its existence. Pure
>> madness. And that is not a question about Bitcoin.
>>
>> Pablo:
>>> Not pessimistic at all, at most, realistic. Speculation and usury, while
>>> being disgusting for you, are just the rational version of greediness, a
>>> survival strategy found in many other organisms that is useful to
>> maximise
>>> the organism's survival probability. In this regard I don't see how
>> humans
>>> are particularly special or capable of 'evil' acts more than ants, for
>>> example. If you support bitcoin, ultimately you're supporting the
>>> impossibility of currency debasement and tax collection, effectively
>>> helping the capitalists to operate out of democratic control.
>> Cryptography
>>> (and any system derived from it) is about privatising information and
>> that
>>> is in direct conflict with the objective of socialism, which is to
>> abolish
>>> private property. Don't be fooled by the fact that bitcoin uses a p2p
>>> network, that part was introduced only to make it byzantine fault
>> tolerant,
>>> even if it did end up giving a false illusion of 'equality between
>> peers'.
>>>
>>> 2016-01-26 13:55 GMT+01:00 psy <epsylon@???>:
>>>
>>>> I partially agree.
>>>>
>>>> Because I understand the pessimistic view of human hand representing the
>>>> Bitcoin (BTC).
>>>>
>>>> But I think we should not confundig the dilemma of the tool, with the
>>>> possibilities of it: A free tool can be managed by a closed community.
>>>> Or a community with questionable ethics. Ok. It is a community problem,
>>>> not the tool.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that BTC allows two human disgusting acts occur: usury
>>>> and speculation. They are problems of human nature. In order to solve
>>>> them using the technology, techniques must write rules based on moral
>>>> standards.
>>>>
>>>> For example, the 'fee' for BTC can be used to spread the wealth.
>>>> Somehow, making the most equitable result. So maybe we should see the
>>>> BTC as a first prototype, a great idea to build something better. The
>>>> full protocol serves to create other infrastructure. And that alone
>>>> should be sufficiently positive to solve the problem of speculative
>>>> human behavior through technology itself.
>>>>
>>>> Pablo:
>>>>> Pessimistic for you. I wouldn't have joined in first place if I knew
>> the
>>>>> protocol may be changed by popular vote. To me, the fact that the
>> system
>>>>> can't scale is by far way less important than the fact that the
>> protocol
>>>>> can be changed just through politics and brain washing. If "wealth
>>>>> redistribution" (the euphemism for taxes) was systematic and impossible
>>>> to
>>>>> avoid, I wonder then who will produce it in first place, before we all
>>>> end
>>>>> up being slaves of yet another totalitarian regime.
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-01-25 20:22 GMT+01:00 Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@???>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the real outlook is far more pessimistic than Hearn is.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bitcoin was never a 'transparent and open community'. Go look up any
>>>>>> discussion about altcoins or changing the money supply algorithm and
>>>>>> you'll find plenty of censorship and attacks on any perception or
>>>>>> discussion that might redistribute value from those that have hoarded
>>>>>> bitcoins to those that actually create value by using the currency.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bitcoin (and most altcoins) still follow the same 'vulture capital'
>>>>>> start-up model where the first 5 people end up with 95% of the wealth
>>>>>> and everyone else begs for scraps.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what do we need to do in order to have a real grass-roots movement
>>>>>> that recognizes that wealth can really only be sustainable generated
>>>>>> and held when there is a reasonable and transparent
>>>> wealth-redistribution
>>>>>> mechanism from those that have orders of magnitude more than they need
>>>>>> for food and shelter, and those that are dying for lack of the money
>>>>>> to buy food and shelter?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is very few of the wealthy seem to understand how big of
>>>>>> a problem they are creating by hoarding wealth. My experience is I've
>>>>>> seen the worst of this among the folks that get press and attention
>>>>>> around Bitcoin.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 07:15:27AM +0200, Margus w. Meigo wrote:
>>>>>>> Probably You have read Mike Hearn <https://medium.com/@octskyward>
>>>> last
>>>>>>> post by now, but here it is once more for fresh insight
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would say he is slightly pessimistic
>>>>>>> But what is reply to my local LHV bank here who want to get updates
>> on
>>>>>>> solid bitcoin future? ?
>>>>>>> As it is like last our country own bank, would not wanna let anyone
>>>> screw
>>>>>>> them over.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> How is the solutions and what he wrote is something that was told to
>> be
>>>>>>> impossible (and on what, was people warned few years ago..)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what are hes most true points to worry about ?
>>>>>>> When we will have complete power to shut of anyone we want and hang
>>>> them
>>>>>>> who stops truth about what is needed to be done.. what Would You Do?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Here is picks from long post:*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>
>> https://medium.com/@octskyward/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "In the span of only about eight months, Bitcoin has gone from being
>> a
>>>>>>> transparent and open community to one that is dominated by rampant
>>>>>>> censorship and attacks on bitcoiners by other bitcoiners. This
>>>>>>> transformation is by far the most appalling thing I have ever seen,
>> and
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> result is that I no longer feel comfortable being associated with the
>>>>>>> Bitcoin community."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "From the start, I’ve always said the same thing: Bitcoin is an
>>>>>> experiment
>>>>>>> and like all experiments, it can fail. So don’t invest what you can’t
>>>>>>> afford to lose. I’ve said this in interviews, on stage at
>> conferences,
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> over email. So have other well known developers like Gavin Andresen
>> and
>>>>>>> Jeff Garzik."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Why has Bitcoin failed? It has failed because the community has
>>>> failed.
>>>>>>> What was meant to be a new, decentralised form of money that lacked
>>>>>>> “systemically important institutions” and “too big to fail” has
>> become
>>>>>>> something even worse: a system completely controlled by just a
>> handful
>>>> of
>>>>>>> people. Worse still, the network is on the brink of technical
>> collapse.
>>>>>> The
>>>>>>> mechanisms that should have prevented this outcome have broken down,
>>>> and
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>> a result there’s no longer much reason to think Bitcoin can actually
>> be
>>>>>>> better than the existing financial system."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "In other cases, entire datacenters were disconnected from the
>> internet
>>>>>>> until the single XT node inside them was stopped. About a third of
>> the
>>>>>>> nodes were attacked and removed from the internet in this way.
>>>>>>> Worse, the mining pool that had been offering BIP101 was also
>> attacked
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> forced to stop. The message was clear: anyone who supported bigger
>>>>>> blocks,
>>>>>>> or even allowed other people to vote for them, would be assaulted.
>>>>>>> The attackers are still out there. When Coinbase, months after the
>>>>>> launch,
>>>>>>> announced they had finally lost patience with Core and would run XT,
>>>> they
>>>>>>> too were forced offline for a while."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bogus conferences
>>>>>>> Despite the DoS attacks and censorship, XT was gaining momentum. That
>>>>>> posed
>>>>>>> a threat to Core, so a few of its developers decided to organise a
>>>> series
>>>>>>> of conferences named “Scaling Bitcoin”: one in August and one in
>>>>>> December.
>>>>>>> The goal, it was claimed, was to reach “consensus” on what should be
>>>>>> done.
>>>>>>> Everyone likes a consensus of experts, don’t they?
>>>>>>> The fact that the first conference actually banned discussion of
>>>> concrete
>>>>>>> proposals didn’t help."
>>>>>>>

>>>>>>> "Think about it. If you had never heard about Bitcoin before, would
>> you
>>>>>>> care about a payments network that:
>>>>>>>     Couldn’t move your existing money
>>>>>>>     Had wildly unpredictable fees that were high and rising fast
>>>>>>>     Allowed buyers to take back payments they’d made after walking
>> out
>>>> of
>>>>>>> shops, by simply pressing a button (if you aren’t aware of this
>>>> “feature”
>>>>>>> that’s because Bitcoin was only just changed to allow it)
>>>>>>>     Is suffering large backlogs and flaky payments
>>>>>>>     … which is controlled by China
>>>>>>>     … and in which the companies and people building it were in open
>>>>>> civil
>>>>>>> war?
>>>>>>> I’m going to hazard a guess that the answer is no."

>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "In case you haven’t been keeping up with Bitcoin, here is how the
>>>>>> network
>>>>>>> looks as of January 2016.
>>>>>>> The block chain is full. You may wonder how it is possible for what
>> is
>>>>>>> essentially a series of files to be “full”. The answer is that an
>>>>>> entirely
>>>>>>> artificial capacity cap of one megabyte per block, put in place as a
>>>>>>> temporary kludge a long time ago, has not been removed and as a
>> result
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> network’s capacity is now almost completely exhausted."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "You may have read that the limit is 7 payments per second. That’s an
>>>> old
>>>>>>> figure from 2011 and Bitcoin transactions got a lot more complex
>> since
>>>>>>> then, so the true figure is a lot lower."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "At a stroke, this makes using Bitcoin useless for actually buying
>>>>>> things,
>>>>>>> as you’d have to wait for a buyer’s transaction to appear in the
>> block
>>>>>>> chain … which from now on can take hours rather than minutes, due to
>>>> the
>>>>>>> congestion.
>>>>>>> Core’s reasoning for why this is OK goes like this: it’s no big loss
>>>>>>> because if you hadn’t been waiting for a block before, there was a
>>>>>>> theoretical risk of payment fraud, which means you weren’t using
>>>> Bitcoin
>>>>>>> properly. Thus, making that risk a 100% certainty doesn’t really
>> change
>>>>>>> anything.
>>>>>>> In other words, they don’t recognise that risk management exists and
>> so
>>>>>>> perceive this change as zero cost"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "If that didn’t convince you Bitcoin has serious problems, nothing
>>>> will.
>>>>>>> How many people would think bitcoins are worth hundreds of dollars
>> each
>>>>>>> when you soon won’t be able to use them in actual shops?"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Conclusions
>>>>>>> Bitcoin has entered exceptionally dangerous waters. Previous crises,
>>>> like
>>>>>>> the bankruptcy of Mt Gox, were all to do with the services and
>>>> companies
>>>>>>> that sprung up around the ecosystem. But this one is different: it
>> is a
>>>>>>> crisis of the core system, the block chain itself.
>>>>>>> More fundamentally, it is a crisis that reflects deep philosophical
>>>>>>> differences in how people view the world: either as one that should
>> be
>>>>>>> ruled by a “consensus of experts”, or through ordinary people picking
>>>>>>> whatever policies make sense to them.
>>>>>>> Even if a new team was built to replace Bitcoin Core, the problem of
>>>>>> mining
>>>>>>> power being concentrated behind the Great Firewall would remain.
>>>> Bitcoin
>>>>>>> has no future whilst it’s controlled by fewer than 10 people. And
>>>> there’s
>>>>>>> no solution in sight for this problem: nobody even has any
>> suggestions.
>>>>>> For
>>>>>>> a community that has always worried about the block chain being taken
>>>>>> over
>>>>>>> by an oppressive government, it is a rich irony."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In article the links also, and rest of it..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 4:36 AM, odinn <
>>>> odinn.cyberguerrilla@???>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Mike Hearn
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Armastusega,
>>>>>>> Margus
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
>>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>

>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>> Troy Benjegerdes                 'da hozer'
>>>>>> hozer@???
>>>>>> 7 elements      earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul
>>>>>> grid.coop

>>>>>>

>>>>>>       Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
>>>>>>          nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash

>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
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