You can't have equality and freedom at the same time, those are in direct
conflict.
2016-01-27 2:02 GMT+01:00 psy <epsylon@???>:
> Ok"!. We want: 'freedom' ;_)
>
> Pablo:
> > I totally agree. What's more important to me is the fact that you can
> build
> > an opt-in socialist state in a free society (even if I think it would
> > fail), but you can't have a free society under the control of a
> > totalitarian socialist state.
>
> You are using a classic deductive fallacy argument about "A" or "B".
> Btw, whatever form of totalitarism is a problem. What about a free
> society under the control of itself?
>
> > 2016-01-26 23:54 GMT+01:00 Diego Saa <cuco.saa@???>:
> >
> >> Who wants equality anyway?
>
> ME !!!
>
> Because along with fraternity maybe we can reach 'real' freedom.
>
> And when I speak of freedom I do not mention the simple utopia word
> frequently used when conversation. Who does not want freedom?.
>
> Here the debate is on how to get it equally. Where all human beings
> agree on where it begins and ends each.
>
> >> What humanity needs is freedom.
>
> Freedom without equality does not hold.
>
> >> On Jan 26, 2016 4:12 PM, "Pablo" <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Not pessimistic at all, at most, realistic. Speculation and usury,
> while
> >>> being disgusting for you, are just the rational version of greediness,
> a
> >>> survival strategy found in many other organisms that is useful to
> maximise
> >>> the organism's survival probability. In this regard I don't see how
> humans
> >>> are particularly special or capable of 'evil' acts more than ants, for
> >>> example. If you support bitcoin, ultimately you're supporting the
> >>> impossibility of currency debasement and tax collection, effectively
> >>> helping the capitalists to operate out of democratic control.
> Cryptography
> >>> (and any system derived from it) is about privatising information and
> that
> >>> is in direct conflict with the objective of socialism, which is to
> abolish
> >>> private property. Don't be fooled by the fact that bitcoin uses a p2p
> >>> network, that part was introduced only to make it byzantine fault
> tolerant,
> >>> even if it did end up giving a false illusion of 'equality between
> peers'.
> >>>
> >>> 2016-01-26 13:55 GMT+01:00 psy <epsylon@???>:
> >>>
> >>>> I partially agree.
> >>>>
> >>>> Because I understand the pessimistic view of human hand representing
> the
> >>>> Bitcoin (BTC).
> >>>>
> >>>> But I think we should not confundig the dilemma of the tool, with the
> >>>> possibilities of it: A free tool can be managed by a closed community.
> >>>> Or a community with questionable ethics. Ok. It is a community
> problem,
> >>>> not the tool.
> >>>>
> >>>> The problem is that BTC allows two human disgusting acts occur: usury
> >>>> and speculation. They are problems of human nature. In order to solve
> >>>> them using the technology, techniques must write rules based on moral
> >>>> standards.
> >>>>
> >>>> For example, the 'fee' for BTC can be used to spread the wealth.
> >>>> Somehow, making the most equitable result. So maybe we should see the
> >>>> BTC as a first prototype, a great idea to build something better. The
> >>>> full protocol serves to create other infrastructure. And that alone
> >>>> should be sufficiently positive to solve the problem of speculative
> >>>> human behavior through technology itself.
> >>>>
> >>>> Pablo:
> >>>>> Pessimistic for you. I wouldn't have joined in first place if I knew
> >>>> the
> >>>>> protocol may be changed by popular vote. To me, the fact that the
> >>>> system
> >>>>> can't scale is by far way less important than the fact that the
> >>>> protocol
> >>>>> can be changed just through politics and brain washing. If "wealth
> >>>>> redistribution" (the euphemism for taxes) was systematic and
> >>>> impossible to
> >>>>> avoid, I wonder then who will produce it in first place, before we
> all
> >>>> end
> >>>>> up being slaves of yet another totalitarian regime.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> 2016-01-25 20:22 GMT+01:00 Troy Benjegerdes <hozer@???>:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I think the real outlook is far more pessimistic than Hearn is.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bitcoin was never a 'transparent and open community'. Go look up any
> >>>>>> discussion about altcoins or changing the money supply algorithm and
> >>>>>> you'll find plenty of censorship and attacks on any perception or
> >>>>>> discussion that might redistribute value from those that have
> hoarded
> >>>>>> bitcoins to those that actually create value by using the currency.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bitcoin (and most altcoins) still follow the same 'vulture capital'
> >>>>>> start-up model where the first 5 people end up with 95% of the
> wealth
> >>>>>> and everyone else begs for scraps.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So what do we need to do in order to have a real grass-roots
> movement
> >>>>>> that recognizes that wealth can really only be sustainable generated
> >>>>>> and held when there is a reasonable and transparent
> >>>> wealth-redistribution
> >>>>>> mechanism from those that have orders of magnitude more than they
> need
> >>>>>> for food and shelter, and those that are dying for lack of the money
> >>>>>> to buy food and shelter?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The problem is very few of the wealthy seem to understand how big of
> >>>>>> a problem they are creating by hoarding wealth. My experience is
> I've
> >>>>>> seen the worst of this among the folks that get press and attention
> >>>>>> around Bitcoin.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 07:15:27AM +0200, Margus w. Meigo wrote:
> >>>>>>> Probably You have read Mike Hearn <https://medium.com/@octskyward>
> >>>> last
> >>>>>>> post by now, but here it is once more for fresh insight
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I would say he is slightly pessimistic
> >>>>>>> But what is reply to my local LHV bank here who want to get updates
> >>>> on
> >>>>>>> solid bitcoin future? ?
> >>>>>>> As it is like last our country own bank, would not wanna let anyone
> >>>> screw
> >>>>>>> them over.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> How is the solutions and what he wrote is something that was told
> to
> >>>> be
> >>>>>>> impossible (and on what, was people warned few years ago..)
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> So what are hes most true points to worry about ?
> >>>>>>> When we will have complete power to shut of anyone we want and hang
> >>>> them
> >>>>>>> who stops truth about what is needed to be done.. what Would You
> Do?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> *Here is picks from long post:*
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> https://medium.com/@octskyward/the-resolution-of-the-bitcoin-experiment-dabb30201f7
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "In the span of only about eight months, Bitcoin has gone from
> being
> >>>> a
> >>>>>>> transparent and open community to one that is dominated by rampant
> >>>>>>> censorship and attacks on bitcoiners by other bitcoiners. This
> >>>>>>> transformation is by far the most appalling thing I have ever seen,
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> result is that I no longer feel comfortable being associated with
> the
> >>>>>>> Bitcoin community."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "From the start, I’ve always said the same thing: Bitcoin is an
> >>>>>> experiment
> >>>>>>> and like all experiments, it can fail. So don’t invest what you
> can’t
> >>>>>>> afford to lose. I’ve said this in interviews, on stage at
> >>>> conferences,
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> over email. So have other well known developers like Gavin Andresen
> >>>> and
> >>>>>>> Jeff Garzik."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Why has Bitcoin failed? It has failed because the community has
> >>>> failed.
> >>>>>>> What was meant to be a new, decentralised form of money that lacked
> >>>>>>> “systemically important institutions” and “too big to fail” has
> >>>> become
> >>>>>>> something even worse: a system completely controlled by just a
> >>>> handful of
> >>>>>>> people. Worse still, the network is on the brink of technical
> >>>> collapse.
> >>>>>> The
> >>>>>>> mechanisms that should have prevented this outcome have broken
> down,
> >>>> and
> >>>>>> as
> >>>>>>> a result there’s no longer much reason to think Bitcoin can
> actually
> >>>> be
> >>>>>>> better than the existing financial system."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "In other cases, entire datacenters were disconnected from the
> >>>> internet
> >>>>>>> until the single XT node inside them was stopped. About a third of
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> nodes were attacked and removed from the internet in this way.
> >>>>>>> Worse, the mining pool that had been offering BIP101 was also
> >>>> attacked
> >>>>>> and
> >>>>>>> forced to stop. The message was clear: anyone who supported bigger
> >>>>>> blocks,
> >>>>>>> or even allowed other people to vote for them, would be assaulted.
> >>>>>>> The attackers are still out there. When Coinbase, months after the
> >>>>>> launch,
> >>>>>>> announced they had finally lost patience with Core and would run
> XT,
> >>>> they
> >>>>>>> too were forced offline for a while."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Bogus conferences
> >>>>>>> Despite the DoS attacks and censorship, XT was gaining momentum.
> That
> >>>>>> posed
> >>>>>>> a threat to Core, so a few of its developers decided to organise a
> >>>> series
> >>>>>>> of conferences named “Scaling Bitcoin”: one in August and one in
> >>>>>> December.
> >>>>>>> The goal, it was claimed, was to reach “consensus” on what should
> be
> >>>>>> done.
> >>>>>>> Everyone likes a consensus of experts, don’t they?
> >>>>>>> The fact that the first conference actually banned discussion of
> >>>> concrete
> >>>>>>> proposals didn’t help."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Think about it. If you had never heard about Bitcoin before, would
> >>>> you
> >>>>>>> care about a payments network that:
> >>>>>>> Couldn’t move your existing money
> >>>>>>> Had wildly unpredictable fees that were high and rising fast
> >>>>>>> Allowed buyers to take back payments they’d made after walking
> >>>> out of
> >>>>>>> shops, by simply pressing a button (if you aren’t aware of this
> >>>> “feature”
> >>>>>>> that’s because Bitcoin was only just changed to allow it)
> >>>>>>> Is suffering large backlogs and flaky payments
> >>>>>>> … which is controlled by China
> >>>>>>> … and in which the companies and people building it were in
> open
> >>>>>> civil
> >>>>>>> war?
> >>>>>>> I’m going to hazard a guess that the answer is no."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "In case you haven’t been keeping up with Bitcoin, here is how the
> >>>>>> network
> >>>>>>> looks as of January 2016.
> >>>>>>> The block chain is full. You may wonder how it is possible for what
> >>>> is
> >>>>>>> essentially a series of files to be “full”. The answer is that an
> >>>>>> entirely
> >>>>>>> artificial capacity cap of one megabyte per block, put in place as
> a
> >>>>>>> temporary kludge a long time ago, has not been removed and as a
> >>>> result
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>>> network’s capacity is now almost completely exhausted."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "You may have read that the limit is 7 payments per second. That’s
> >>>> an old
> >>>>>>> figure from 2011 and Bitcoin transactions got a lot more complex
> >>>> since
> >>>>>>> then, so the true figure is a lot lower."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "At a stroke, this makes using Bitcoin useless for actually buying
> >>>>>> things,
> >>>>>>> as you’d have to wait for a buyer’s transaction to appear in the
> >>>> block
> >>>>>>> chain … which from now on can take hours rather than minutes, due
> to
> >>>> the
> >>>>>>> congestion.
> >>>>>>> Core’s reasoning for why this is OK goes like this: it’s no big
> loss
> >>>>>>> because if you hadn’t been waiting for a block before, there was a
> >>>>>>> theoretical risk of payment fraud, which means you weren’t using
> >>>> Bitcoin
> >>>>>>> properly. Thus, making that risk a 100% certainty doesn’t really
> >>>> change
> >>>>>>> anything.
> >>>>>>> In other words, they don’t recognise that risk management exists
> and
> >>>> so
> >>>>>>> perceive this change as zero cost"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "If that didn’t convince you Bitcoin has serious problems, nothing
> >>>> will.
> >>>>>>> How many people would think bitcoins are worth hundreds of dollars
> >>>> each
> >>>>>>> when you soon won’t be able to use them in actual shops?"
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Conclusions
> >>>>>>> Bitcoin has entered exceptionally dangerous waters. Previous
> crises,
> >>>> like
> >>>>>>> the bankruptcy of Mt Gox, were all to do with the services and
> >>>> companies
> >>>>>>> that sprung up around the ecosystem. But this one is different: it
> >>>> is a
> >>>>>>> crisis of the core system, the block chain itself.
> >>>>>>> More fundamentally, it is a crisis that reflects deep philosophical
> >>>>>>> differences in how people view the world: either as one that should
> >>>> be
> >>>>>>> ruled by a “consensus of experts”, or through ordinary people
> picking
> >>>>>>> whatever policies make sense to them.
> >>>>>>> Even if a new team was built to replace Bitcoin Core, the problem
> of
> >>>>>> mining
> >>>>>>> power being concentrated behind the Great Firewall would remain.
> >>>> Bitcoin
> >>>>>>> has no future whilst it’s controlled by fewer than 10 people. And
> >>>> there’s
> >>>>>>> no solution in sight for this problem: nobody even has any
> >>>> suggestions.
> >>>>>> For
> >>>>>>> a community that has always worried about the block chain being
> taken
> >>>>>> over
> >>>>>>> by an oppressive government, it is a rich irony."
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In article the links also, and rest of it..
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Sat, Oct 31, 2015 at 4:36 AM, odinn <
> >>>> odinn.cyberguerrilla@???>
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Mike Hearn
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Armastusega,
> >>>>>>> Margus
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> unSYSTEM mailing list: http://unsystem.net
> >>>>>>> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/unsystem
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>>> Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer'
> >>>>>> hozer@???
> >>>>>> 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soul
> >>>>>> grid.coop
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel,
> >>>>>> nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
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> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
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> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
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> >>>>
> >>>
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> >>>
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
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