Steve Litt wrote:
> On Sun, 3 Jan 2016 09:09:28 +0000
> KatolaZ <katolaz@???> wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Jan 02, 2016 at 01:11:07PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2 Jan 2016 09:08:37 +0000
> > > KatolaZ <katolaz@???> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > > If your root fs does not change every five minutes, you can have a
> > > > custom kernel with ext4 and a few other drivers compiled in, and
> > > > get rid of initramfs altogether. Then, the usage that has been
> > > > done of initramfs in the last few years is just an overkill,
> > > > IMHO.
> > >
> > > This was exactly my point. Why can't Devuan put the ext4 kernel
> > > module and the few other drivers for ext4, on directories directly
> > > off the root partition, plus the stub of an rc file to bring the
> > > thing to the mounted state. This would make Devuan the only distro
> > > giving the user an easy choice of initramfs or not.
> > >
> >
> > Steve,
> >
> > just because not everybody wants to use ext4, not everybody has the
> > same disc controller, not everybody has the same configuration of
> > raid/lvm/whatever.
>
> Let me repeat myself. I think it would be an excellent idea for Debian
> to offer, not to require, as an option, not as the default, an easy way
> of booting sans-initramfs for very simple ext4 configs with no LVM or
> Raid or LUKS on the root partition.
>
> Not for everybody, not for every setup, just for this one fairly simple
> and fairly common one.
>
> > Again, the installer of a distro should be able to
> > install on *any* supported hw/sw configuration. There are basically
> > two ways to do so:
> >
> > 1) build and ship a kernel with everything compiled-in, which might
> > not be any more a viable option, since it would be impossible in some
> > cases to load the full image into RAM at boot time;
>
> Obviously the preceding is not going to be done.
>
> >
> > 2) use an initrd/initramfs with all the potentially useful modules,
> > and let the kernel figure out which of them have to be loaded during
> > boot, which is what happens now.
>
> The preceding is what I envision continues to be the default way of
> booting, and I also hope that the initramfs is kept as simple as
> humanly possible, with only the complexity needed to mount / and
> maybe /usr.
>
> But there's a third option, that could be offered as a non-default
> choice:
>

> 3) Compile ext4 and only the most common hard drive and SSD drivers
>    into a separate and optional kernel that doesn't call an
>    initramfs, but merely runs an rc file as an init. That rc file
>    does nothing but get all the drives mounted and then exec the
>    normal init (sysvinit). 

>
> Repeating: This would be an option, not the default. It would be
> optional, not required. It would work only with ext4 and the very most
> common hardware drivers.
>
> The cost of this would be more work for the Devuan developers. The
> benefits would be:
>
> 1) Simpler, more transparent startup for setups that qualify.
>

> 2) Very good educationally, because adding initramfs to the mix really
>    complicates matters while trying to learn the rudiments of bootup.

>

> 3) Publicity. AFAIK, Devuan would be the only major distro to offer
>    this option.

>
> Let me repeat just one more time: I mention this as a non-default
> option for the simplest of ext4 setups.

Hi Steve,

I would like to see Devuan as a source for innovation in the
community in future and I think it's a great idea to offer a
simpler kernel and boot process. It could be accomplished
with a modest effort, and would simplify subsequent
administration.

I know it's been a discipline of Devuan's default deciders
to avoid enhancements to Debian outside the minimum needed
to achieve Devuan's initial goal of init freedom.

> If anyone wants to debate me about this, please read the preceding
> sentence, so at least you're debating a position I really took.

If you start to develop the pieces involved, it's probably
just a matter of time before they can be brought into the
distribution, again conditional on our achieving Devuan's
preliminary goals.

cheers,

Joel


> Thanks,
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> January 2016 featured book: Twenty Eight Tales of Troubleshooting
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/28
>
>
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--
Joel Roth