On 21/12/15 12:41, Rowland Penny wrote:
> On 21/12/15 11:06, John Hughes wrote:
>> On 21/12/15 11:52, Rowland Penny wrote:
>>> On 21/12/15 10:03, John Hughes wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd to
>>>> be able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to use
>>>> sysvinit, openrc or upstart or whatever. At the moment things are
>>>> all fucked up because there is no long term alternative to the seat
>>>> management part of systemd and few people seem prepared to work on it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> This is what people have been trying to get through to you, if you
>>> run debain jessie, you 'HAVE' to use systemd whether you want to or
>>> not.
>>
>> No, you don't. You do have to have systemd installed, [ see below
>> for why ], but systemd does not have to be pid 1.
>
> OK, systemd doesn't have to be pid1, but by your admission, you still
> have to have it installed *even* if you don't want to, this is *not*
> choice!

Having a few files and directories on your disk is a major problem?
systemd is not running if you're using systemd-shim, it just needs the
systemd directories (that's why systemd-shim depends on systemd -- I
suppose it would be possible to break the systemd package up into
"systemd-config" and "systemd-binaries", but what would be the point?)

>>
>>> I can understand why parts of the desktop rely on something like
>>> udev, but this has now been subsumed by systemd.
>>
>> No it hasn't. The source code for udev is in the same tree as
>> systemd, and they share some library functions, but udev still works
>> without systemd.
>
> Can you explain how? if you try to download the source package for
> udev, you will get the systemd source package.

So? Who the hell cares? Just build udev, there is source for some
other things in the tree, ignore 'em. When udev is running it does not
need systemd.

>
>>
>>> If systemd had just been a replacement for sysv or upstart etc, then
>>> there would not have been all the row about it, those that wanted to
>>> use it could have and those that didn't, didn't have to, but no,
>>> because of the way it is taking over the established way of doing
>>> things, you are denied the free choice of what init system to use!
>>
>> Assumes facts not in evidence.
>
> Only because you seem to be ignoring the evidence, try setting up a
> debian jessie system with a gui. Now open a terminal as root and run
> 'apt-get purge systemd* -y'

Why would you do that? You've just broken your system.

Surely you care about what software is running, not what the package
names or filenames are.

If you want to run an init system other than systemd the way to do it is:

Install your new init system, install systemd-shim, remove
systemd-sysv. Your fathers brother is called Robert.