On 21/12/15 11:06, John Hughes wrote:
> On 21/12/15 11:52, Rowland Penny wrote:
>> On 21/12/15 10:03, John Hughes wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> What I'm looking for is choice -- I want people who want systemd to
>>> be able to run it, and people who dont want it to be able to use
>>> sysvinit, openrc or upstart or whatever. At the moment things are
>>> all fucked up because there is no long term alternative to the seat
>>> management part of systemd and few people seem prepared to work on it.
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>>
>> This is what people have been trying to get through to you, if you
>> run debain jessie, you 'HAVE' to use systemd whether you want to or not.
>
> No, you don't. You do have to have systemd installed, and I'm not
> sure why, but systemd does not have to be pid 1.

OK, systemd doesn't have to be pid1, but by your admission, you still
have to have it installed *even* if you don't want to, this is *not* choice!

>
>> Can you answer why a desktop relies on an init system, because I cannot.
>
> Because systemd (or systemd-shim) does session management, and Gnome
> didn't want to keep doing it (badly) themselves.

There are other ways of doing session management (actually I couldn't
give a flying fig if Gnome3 relies on systemd, I hate that mess as well)

>
>> I can understand why parts of the desktop rely on something like
>> udev, but this has now been subsumed by systemd.
>
> No it hasn't. The source code for udev is in the same tree as
> systemd, and they share some library functions, but udev still works
> without systemd.

Can you explain how? if you try to download the source package for udev,
you will get the systemd source package.

>
>> If systemd had just been a replacement for sysv or upstart etc, then
>> there would not have been all the row about it, those that wanted to
>> use it could have and those that didn't, didn't have to, but no,
>> because of the way it is taking over the established way of doing
>> things, you are denied the free choice of what init system to use!
>
> Assumes facts not in evidence.

Only because you seem to be ignoring the evidence, try setting up a
debian jessie system with a gui. Now open a terminal as root and run
'apt-get purge systemd* -y'

Just how much of your install will you have left?

Rowland

>
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