I agree about all you said, but going further, I think privacy and IP
rights are incompatible and therefore can never be fully enforced properly
by the state.
That's why if somebody cares about the privacy of their communication
channel should always be encrypting it, regardless of the guarantees of the
state on the matter.

2015-09-09 19:19 GMT+02:00 Diego Saa <cuco.saa@???>:

> > It strikes me as odd to think about information as private property.
> To my understanding, the word "private" is related to the word "deprive".
> I think it makes sense to talk about owning something when you are talking
> about a limited resource, such as food, machines, land, etc.
> Because information isn't a limited resource, it's availability doesn't
> decrease when you copy ones and zeros. In other words, you do not deprive
> anyone of some information when you copy it.
> I think that the whole Intellectual Property industry is one of the most
> highly harmful and unethical institutions that our society has deviced; and
> which, just like the state, inexplicably is given legitimacy by quite a big
> number of people.
>
> Diego
> > On Sep 8, 2015 4:32 PM, "Pablo" <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>
> Information is free as in freedom, not as in beer, I thought that was
> obvious. Of course I talk about intellectual property, you said your
> messages are your property therefore nobody can collect them without your
> permission, while I claim that you cannot have intellectual property and
> communications privacy properly done at the same time, one of them must be
> waived for the other to be fully achieved.
>
> 2015-09-08 22:37 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>
>>
>> Is information free? Not for Mr. X who had to pay to install all this
>> little nice machines he bought, employ people that run those, … Indeed Mr.X
>> could have saved himself a lot of trouble and money. (He could have saved
>> that and reduced the prices for his products/services or taxes and fewer
>> people would complain resp. invest their time and money in projects to send
>> bad video copies around, but …)
>>
>> Anyway, you are speaking always of intellectual property (intangible property
>> that is the result of creativity,such as patents, copyrights, etc.) but
>> I speak of privacy (a state in which one is not observed or disturbed by
>> other people). When A and B have a chat about lives trivialities they do
>> not like to be observed. Where is the intellectual property here,
>> the “Happy B’day” message?
>>
>> If A and B exchange intellectual property of C, like a video, while they
>> have a chat, sorry for C, its private.
>>
>> Hope that clears a little the air.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 08.09.2015, at 21:33, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>>
>> Better than that, there never was a battle for Mr X. and the intellectual
>> property rights supporters to win, information will always leak from its
>> container, it is free and it will always be. It doesn't really cares about
>> what you think about that.
>>
>> 2015-09-08 21:18 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>>
>>>
>>> Mr. X will find that A & B do not like what he does and sooner or later
>>> he realizes that he does not understand all what A and B exchanging despite
>>> all his money … Its not a battle that finishes after the enemy is killed
>>> its competition where ever new improvements are found to protect A's and
>>> B's interests.
>>>
>>>
>>> On 08.09.2015, at 20:45, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>>>
>>> And Illegal in the way that Mr. X do not consent A to send the latest
>>> hollywood movie to B over the channel, so I guess Mr. X, who has a lot of
>>> money to spend on lawyers and politicians, will win the battle anyway.
>>>
>>> 2015-09-08 14:56 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Illegal in the way that A and/or B do not consent that a Mr. X is
>>>> listening when A has a chat with B and use the obtained information to
>>>> create a claim.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 08.09.2015, at 14:15, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Exactly, you cannot be sure, and given how easy it is to share bits
>>>> you'll have to assume that likely there is some sharing going on. Not sure
>>>> what do mean with "illegal way", content providers and ISPs have been
>>>> teaming up to inspect internet packets since the technology is available in
>>>> most developed countries. Obviously not everybody can in practice do it, it
>>>> takes infrastructure and the right amount of money in the pockets of
>>>> politicians.
>>>>
>>>> 2015-09-08 8:30 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> One can not be sure (nobody shares) but within a contract you could
>>>>> define a remedy for the harm that is done to you by not fulfilling the
>>>>> contract.
>>>>>
>>>>> You mean obtaining in an illegal way (without consent) Information (in
>>>>> some jurisdictions) should be accepted as a proper proof?! Ok, then I go to
>>>>> court and claim $ 1 Mio. damage from A because B told C that A stole it.
>>>>> What will a judge say/decide?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 07.09.2015, at 22:56, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Unfortunately eavesdropping is the only way to enforce intellectual
>>>>> property rights, how else will you protect your property from being shared
>>>>> without your consent? And I mean in practice, because what will you do in a
>>>>> court if you have no proof that your property was shared?
>>>>>
>>>>> 2015-09-07 20:14 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mr. X listening to a private communication in which intellectual
>>>>>> property (“Happy B’day”) is exchanged is not enforcing intellectual
>>>>>> property rights, that’s eavesdropping (secretly listen to a
>>>>>> conversation), a violation of my privacy, depending on where you
>>>>>> live. Going to court is (peacefully) enforcing your rights e.g. on
>>>>>> intellectual property with all its difficulties.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 07.09.2015, at 18:38, Pablo <pablovidal85@???> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Call it whatever you are more confortable with, but if you cannot
>>>>>> deprive anybody from it, is not your private property. It may be your
>>>>>> shared property with the receiver, until the receiver shares it with
>>>>>> somebody else. Mr X listening to communications is something I would expect
>>>>>> in a state where intellectual property rights exist, you know, contractual
>>>>>> obligations have to be enforced.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2015-09-07 16:27 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Beg to differ.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If A says to B “Happy Birthday”. What B does with it later on, e.g.
>>>>>>> telling C, hey A called and said “H.. …” is his thing. Mr. X listening,
>>>>>>> before B talks, doesn’t deserve respect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What happens if A says to B “Happy Birthday but don’t tell anyone”?
>>>>>>> B might or not talk. Mr. X listening, before B talks, doesn’t deserve
>>>>>>> respect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or, if A contacts B and asks “I would like to share some Info with
>>>>>>> you but only when you do not share it with anyone else, do you agree?”. B
>>>>>>> agrees. Mr. X listening all the way doesn’t deserve respect.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If one puts communication/information in a contractual context
>>>>>>> information stays private property without massive surveillance systems,
>>>>>>> its a kind of non disclosure agreement. Of course if you don’t trust B
>>>>>>> serving the contract you get paranoid and become Mr. X listening to all and
>>>>>>> everything.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The very definition of communication goes against the concept of
>>>>>>> private property, once you share the information you lost the capacity of
>>>>>>> depriving the rest of the world of it. What strong encryption provides is
>>>>>>> just secured communication channels and that's about it. I find people who
>>>>>>> supports intellectual property and privacy rights at the same time amusing,
>>>>>>> because you know, the only way we have to enforce property rights on
>>>>>>> information is precisely having full control of it, using massive
>>>>>>> surveillance systems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2015-09-07 8:44 GMT+02:00 Otto Meier <ottomeier95@???>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Why: What I say to someone else is my property I decide with whom
>>>>>>>> to share it. Its my decision. Its a principle. It doesn’t matter what it
>>>>>>>> is, a subversive comment or a Happy Birthday note. I do not want anyone
>>>>>>>> else to read it! Whoever doesn’t respect that doesn’t deserve my respect...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "communications being intercepted and who we speak to known to
>>>>>>>> people we would like to conceal this from is that once we have The Perfect
>>>>>>>> end-to-end encrypted, decentralised, distributed, privacy preserving
>>>>>>>> communication tool that everybody in the world uses, we actually don’t have
>>>>>>>> anything meaningful to say over it."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dude, there has been a constant in history which is that most
>>>>>>>> people don't have anything meaningful to say in any medium. Let the general
>>>>>>>> populace cannibalize themselves, that's their choice, but those who are
>>>>>>>> actually alive need a way to communicate without prosecution. Stop worrying
>>>>>>>> about everyone else and focus on the things that you as an individual find
>>>>>>>> important. Similar individuals who share a vision will be drawn together.
>>>>>>>> It's never been about saving the world and it never will be.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What one finds worthless might for someone else something...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sep 6, 2015 3:21 PM, "Arturo Filastò" <arturo@???>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I apologise in advance if what I talk about may appear to be a
>>>>>>>>> little be off topic, but by reading this thread and in particular the words
>>>>>>>>> of Jaromil and Amir I believe this is fertile ground in which to express
>>>>>>>>> some of my ideas.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The more time goes by the more disillusioned I become about some
>>>>>>>>> aspects of these so called “movements” close to the
>>>>>>>>> anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia sub-system.
>>>>>>>>> What actually worries me much more than all of our communications
>>>>>>>>> being intercepted and who we speak to known to people we would like to
>>>>>>>>> conceal this from is that once we have The Perfect end-to-end encrypted,
>>>>>>>>> decentralised, distributed, privacy preserving communication tool that
>>>>>>>>> everybody in the world uses, we actually don’t have anything meaningful to
>>>>>>>>> say over it.
>>>>>>>>> What use is crypto and these tools to us if we don’t have an idea
>>>>>>>>> or a plan as to what we should do with it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I see this brainwashing being particularly prevalent in the Berlin
>>>>>>>>> scene and it makes me sick and that is one of the reasons why some years
>>>>>>>>> ago I fled the city promising to never live here again.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The other aspect is that I sometimes have some serious problems
>>>>>>>>> understanding what are the motivations and the ideals underpinning the
>>>>>>>>> behaviours of certain people in this realm and have been stung by this in
>>>>>>>>> the past. Said differently it doesn’t mean that if two people are
>>>>>>>>> interested in doing the same thing, they are both doing it for the same
>>>>>>>>> reason. The reason, in my opinion, is actually the most important thing and
>>>>>>>>> agree on what to do is just not enough, we should also agree on WHY we do
>>>>>>>>> it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> This lack of vision and common shared objective makes me often
>>>>>>>>> doubt if I should continue focussing on what it is I am focussing on and if
>>>>>>>>> I should instead move to tackle other more important and relevant problems.
>>>>>>>>> The times I have stopped a moment to look around and listen to
>>>>>>>>> what the earth is telling us I realise that surveillance and technological
>>>>>>>>> control is only just a small piece of this puzzle. If we continue in what
>>>>>>>>> we are doing, in not too long we will completely fuck ourselves. We have
>>>>>>>>> actually already fucked ourselves, the club of Rome warned us of this
>>>>>>>>> already in 1972, but nobody listened to their warning that if nothing were
>>>>>>>>> to be done there would not be any turning back. We are now too late. We are
>>>>>>>>> fucked. All we can do is extend our the lifetime of humanity, but what has
>>>>>>>>> been done is the last century is now IRREVERSIBLE.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Going back to the main topic in question I have a hard time
>>>>>>>>> understanding why certain people are doing what they do. To make an example
>>>>>>>>> I don’t understand why Cody Wilson is so much into this idea of making
>>>>>>>>> guns. What is the vision there? What is the end goal?
>>>>>>>>> Is it really necessary to fuck up a beautiful technology such as
>>>>>>>>> 3d printing to make a political statement? In a way it’s as if somebody
>>>>>>>>> were to publish schemes on how to use enzymes to build a bioweapon, hence
>>>>>>>>> realising the threat that people proposing more regulation on biohacking
>>>>>>>>> are using to justify it.
>>>>>>>>> Groups in the past have overthrown their own government without
>>>>>>>>> the need of 3d printed guns and let’s be frank you are not going to supply
>>>>>>>>> an army with plastic guns and expect them to have a chance against the US
>>>>>>>>> government. I’m sorry, but I just don’t buy it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Again I am sorry if this is a long off-topic rant, but I wanted to
>>>>>>>>> get these things off my chest and I hope that somebody here can in some way
>>>>>>>>> relate to it. Some of the people I have spoken to about ideas have not
>>>>>>>>> given the importance I believe this problem deserves and I believe this is
>>>>>>>>> caused by the anarcho-libertarian-crypto-paranoia sect brainwashing that I
>>>>>>>>> see going on all around me.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ~ Arturo
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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